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ANGRYWHITEMAN63

"Life is tough. Life is tougher if you're stupid" - John Wayne
Articles Posted: 42  Links Seeded: 106
Member Since: 7/2008  Last Seen: 1/28/2012

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Man carries Rifle to Health Care Protest……And the Liberals wet themselves.

Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:14 PM EDT
politics, protest, 2nd-amendment, rifle
By AngryWhiteMan63
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At a protest rally outside a Town Hall meeting in Arizona, a man showed up with a rifle slung over his shoulder. He's not the only one to show up with a weapon. Several other people were observed carrying side arms. Arizona is an Open Carry state. This means that a loaded weapon may be carried legally in public so long as it is clearly visible. To carry a concealed weapon, one must obtain a permit to do so. It is unknown if any or how many concealed weapons were present at this protest.

This has made quite a stir in the media, and of course the liberals and progressives are as usual whining, pissing, moaning, and complaining about it. They've had much to say concerning this citizen and his decision to exercise his rights under State and Federal law.

First, let's be clear. The Second Amendment, as recently affirmed by the Supreme Court, allows an individual right to keep and bare arms. Second, Arizona law allows for the open carry of such weapons. So this man and the others with visible weapons were completely within their rights and the boundaries of the law to carry said weapons at this rally. This has been affirmed by the Sherriff of that county.

But the libs and progs are still upset. They would argue that this display is a form of intimidation. That he used poor judgment. That the display of firearms has no place at a protest against health care.

Well. In the words of Samuel L. Jackson, "Allow me to retort!"

Arguments for the Second Amendment have long been tied to an armed populace, capable of suppressing an oppressive government. That is, if the Federal Government became more of a monster than our founding fathers had envisioned, they allowed for a means of correcting that situation.

Nancy Pelosi says that those who oppose her plan for health care are un-American. Harry Reid calls the protesters Evil-Mongers. For weeks now, the American People have voiced their opinions and feelings on this legislation. And they have been vilified for it. That tactic by the Liberal leaders in DC is backfiring. Attacking those who oppose has galvanized the opposition. And they are pushing back.

Elected officials have received letters and emails from their constituents. And many have been put on notice that their political careers are in jeopardy. Not so much for how they will vote, but how they react to the people. I'd hazard a guess that Arlen Specter is about to retire. After a heated town hall meeting, where he appeared to honestly listen to the concerns of his people, he turns around and makes a statement that the opposition to this legislation is "not representative of the public's view on the issue." Really? Then who were you at a town hall meeting with, if not the public?

The current leadership in DC was not elected by the Liberals or Progressives. They were elected by the Independents. The undecided. And they were elected because the country needed something different. The choices were slim. One looked too much like the last 8 years. So they chose the other.

But that doesn't mean the country, as a whole was ready to embrace the radical far left agenda. And they are being vocal about that now. The problem is the radical far left leadership cannot accept that their agenda is not acceptable to the masses. And so they attack. And vilify. And that gets a response. But it's not one they like.

Along with the threat of a loss in 2010, and 2012, the people are sending another message as well. And that message is, "Read the Second Amendment again. Understand it. Because we do."

Now, I don't know the gentleman who carried the rifle to the protest. I don't know any of the folks there who were armed. But this fellow's response when asked why he was carrying a weapon speaks volumes in a few short words. "Because I can".

Update: Through conversations with others on this matter, I would like to clarify a few points. First, I neither condemn, nor condon the actions these folks took by bringing these weapons to a protest. I am simply affirming their right to do so under state and federal law.

Second, I in no way am promoting violence against protesters, counter-protesters, or our elected officials. While the 2nd Amendment has a basis in an armed populace maintaining a check and balance against an oppresive government, it is my opinion that we are nowhere near that point, and we have many options available to us to effect changes in our government without resorting to violence.

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  • Groups: Bar Room Debates, Democrat Watch, Guns and gun control, Outraged Americans For Justice, Power to The People!, Reagan Conservatives, The Sovereign States of America, Veterans & Friends
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AngryWhiteMan63Restored

The gentleman was making a political statement. He has a right. You may not agree with him. You may not like it. It may offend you. (Code Pink Pussies protesting outside the Marine Corp Recruiting office in Berkley CA offends me.) Get over it.

  • 34 votes
#1 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:17 PM EDT
Jason4188

I am glad it was a black man with the rifle, at least it was in the picture I saw. If it would have been a white man this would be a race issue and not a 2nd amendmant issue. Then again the liberals probably have tried to spin this as a race issue and I just have not read it yet.

  • 28 votes
#1.1 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:32 PM EDT
bobby h

The man has a right (unfortunately) to own an assault rifle, but that does not mean that it was appropriate to bring it to the town hall.

Regardless of how pro-gun you are, you should have the tact to understand that there are places where carrying a firearm is not appropriate -- let alone an assault rifle.

Further you have taken both Reid and Pelosi out of context in a deliberate attempt to misquote them. Your argument would carry more weight if you didn't fall back on this sort of misinformation and rhetoric.

  • 34 votes
#1.2 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:53 PM EDT
JACK DEATH

Do you feel the same way about the Kansas Christian group who shout insults at funerals of American war dead?

  • 22 votes
#1.3 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:54 PM EDT
AngryWhiteMan63

Further you have taken both Reid and Pelosi out of context in a deliberate attempt to misquote them.

Please. Enlighten me.

  • 15 votes
#1.4 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:11 PM EDT
AngryWhiteMan63Restored

Do you feel the same way about the Kansas Christian group who shout insults at funerals of American war dead?

They offend me just as much, if not more than the Code Pink Pussies. But, I don't have a right not to be offended, contrary to what some liberals and progressives think. And, further more, as a vet, I will defend their right to be @!$%#s.

  • 22 votes
#1.5 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:14 PM EDT
JACK DEATH

So would you go and shout insults at them outside of the so called house of worship to make your point of disgust or is that just too Pink Pussie of you?

  • 8 votes
#1.6 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:20 PM EDT
AngryWhiteMan63

What? What the @!$%# does that have to do with anything. They offend me, I get over it. End of story.

  • 24 votes
#1.7 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:23 PM EDT
Evil 1

Angry:

Great article!! You know the Libs and Pros are going to piss and moan about it and try to spin its context to support their agenda, but it seems as though all their whining and crying is for naught. The latest polls show their leaders ratings heading south and his continuous lying and tap dancing around the issues is catching up with him, even some of the liberal media is beginning to sour on him (check out CNN's recent poll results). We should be thankful the fellow carrying the weapon appears to be a black man otherwise they would be putting the 'racist' spin on the issue tied to a 'deep seeded, delusional assassination plot' thrown into the mix.

  • 15 votes
#1.8 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:23 PM EDT
Adrian ThornDeleted
AngryWhiteMan63

E, you and Jason brought up the same point, and it's a good one. I'm sure many of them are pissed that it's a black man and they can't throw out the KKK connection, racism charge, etc. Thanks for the comment!

  • 22 votes
#1.10 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:27 PM EDT
AngryWhiteMan63

Personal attacks will be deleted Adrian.

  • 18 votes
#1.11 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:29 PM EDT
bobby h

AngryWhiteMan-

In the article in questions, Pelosi's quote was as follows:

"it is now evident that an ugly campaign is underway not merely to misrepresent the health insurance reform legislation, but to disrupt public meetings and prevent members of Congress and constituents from conducting a civil dialogue," and that "[d]rowning out opposing views is simply un-American."

I'm not attempting to argue for or against her (and it is not a comment that I would have made), but her statement was not that those who oppose health care are un-American. She was opining, rather, on the tactics that are being used; not the views of those who were taking them.

  • 14 votes
#1.12 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:29 PM EDT
JACK DEATH

So carry a gun to a Presidential public meeting to show you can but, to standup and protest those who claim a fallen American solider died because America is homosexual loving country you will not. Interesting take from a Vet.

  • 9 votes
#1.13 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:35 PM EDT
Adrian ThornDeleted
AngryWhiteMan63

you will not

Will not what? Honestly Jack, you're making no sense whatsoever. They have a right to protest. This guy has a right to make his political statement. I will defend both. But I don't have to agree with both. I happen to agree with this guy's statement. What would you have me do with the Code Pink Pussies or the Babtist church idiots?

  • 15 votes
#1.15 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:41 PM EDT
AngryWhiteMan63

She was opining, rather, on the tactics that are being used; not the views of those who were taking them.

I can see your point Bobby. But I disagree. Had this been the only comment she made, it would probably not have been seen as such. However, taken together with all her comments, such as labeling the protesters as paid hacks of the Insurance industry (not her words exactly) and insisting that they were not sincere in their opposition is what makes her statement a statement not just of the tactics, but of the protesters as a whole. Now, is that spin? Perhaps. But, that is my opinion. And this is an opinion piece. AND, I might add, she has done nothing to my knowledge to refute this opinion of her statement.

  • 13 votes
#1.16 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:46 PM EDT
JACK DEATH

Babtist church idiots?

Go to where they so call worship and protest outside with signs condemning them as they do the fallen solders and their families. That takes a lot more to do than walking around with a firearm.

  • 7 votes
#1.17 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:48 PM EDT
AngryWhiteMan63

Go to where they so call worship and protest outside with signs condemning them as they do the fallen solders and their families.

Fine. Next time I'm in Jonesboro Arkansas (I think that's where they are), I'll stand outside their church and scream at them because they are idiots. Happy?

  • 17 votes
#1.18 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:52 PM EDT
bobby h

Angry-

Again, I don't think that Pelosi has phrased many of her comments as well as she could have. However, my inference on her comments (and this is my opinion piece) is that she was attempt to denounce and separate the noise of the faux-protests from the real debate.

There is a substantive debate on health care that should be had, from both sides. However, there are also groups and organizations that are taking the side of the corporate and insurance interests and attempting to pass if off as that of the average American.

I think that Pelosi (and others) was making an attempt to vilify the attempts that outside interests were making to subvert a very real debate among Americans about improving health care. That said, much to my chagrin, I think these outside interest groups have been far more successful than Pelosi.

  • 7 votes
#1.19 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:56 PM EDT
AngryWhiteMan63

I think that Pelosi (and others) was making an attempt to vilify the attempts that outside interests were making to subvert a very real debate among Americans about improving health care.

And that would be justified, if it were the case. However, and I have asked this in many threads, no-one has been able to show a substantiated tie between the protesters and the corporations. Many allegations to bussing in protesters, funding protests, etc, but no proof.

On the contrary. What I think we have seen is people getting rightiously pissed at being dismissed as nothing more than corporate shills. That is where I think that tactic has backfired. And it has gotten so bad, (the dismissal of REAL concerns) that people have taken drastic measures to get the point across (such as bringing guns to town hall meetings). Pelosi did not embrace the notion of actual debate of the issues from the beginning. She dismissed opposition as not grass roots, but corporate meddling. And from your comment, it seems you may feel that way as well.

  • 12 votes
#1.20 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:08 PM EDT
JACK DEATH

There was a bus that traveled from Democratic town hall meeting to the next state to state that is funded by FreedomWorks with speakers.

  • 4 votes
#1.21 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:12 PM EDT
ScienceGuy-356641

With respect to bringing loaded weapons to political events, especially when the POTUS is present, it's not a question of can you, it's a matter of should you.

  • 21 votes
#1.22 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:16 PM EDT
AngryWhiteMan63

There was a bus that traveled from Democratic town hall meeting to the next state to state that is funded by FreedomWorks with speakers.

Link? And show me where any of the protesters in a town hall meeting were bussed in.

  • 11 votes
#1.23 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:20 PM EDT
JACK DEATH

This is from today.

http://www.wsbt.com/news/local/53491147.html

  • 6 votes
#1.24 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:41 PM EDT
bobby h

no-one has been able to show a substantiated tie between the protesters and the corporations.

Among much other evidence, memos such as this one (from a FreedomWorks affiliated website) have been released orchestrating the town hall disturbances. The groups behind these orchestrations, advertisements and movements have included those such as FreedomWorks, 60 Plus and Patients First.

60 Plus is primarily funded by the pharmaceutical industry.

FreedomWorks, whose previous endevours included creating fake grassroots websites, is run by Dick Armey who joined after working with the law firm DLA Piper who received over $830,000 to lobby on behalf of pharma companies. Other exploits of the group include taking big tobacco money to lobby against cigarette regulation.

Other faux groups include Patients First, run by Americans for Prosperity.

Many of these groups are structured under the tax code in such a way as to not have to disclose their donors. However, if you connect the dots you start to see more of an advertisement than advocacy.

  • 11 votes
#1.25 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:54 PM EDT
Prospero1

This: "Nancy Pelosi says that those who oppose her plan for health care are un-American." is a lie. Therefore, the remainder of what you had to say is necessarily unreliable.

You should really be careful about repeating the things you hear on right wing hate radio & TV. Those guys will make a monkey out of you every time.

  • 8 votes
#1.26 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:01 PM EDT
AngryWhiteMan63

Jack, that's not a bussed in protest to a town hall meeting, which is the allegation Pelosi has asserted, and Bobby and I have been discussing. Try Again.

  • 12 votes
#1.27 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:01 PM EDT
JACK DEATH

That same bus was in CO and had brought in some idiot that ranted on about the final solution.

I can not find that video but it is out there. Beside the bus is very much part of a corporate organized groups of protesters and by NO means grassroots but Astroturf.

  • 7 votes
#1.28 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:05 PM EDT
AngryWhiteMan63

Again, not part of the actual town hall protests. Try again.

  • 14 votes
#1.29 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:17 PM EDT
JACK DEATH

What makes what part of what by your definition?

  • 5 votes
#1.30 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:25 PM EDT
AngryWhiteMan63

Bobby, you surprise me. The first link, to a document on TPM from Right Principles, hasbeen debunked. Right Principles is a 5 member group in CT, who were active in the CT politics during the election. They are not affiliated with FreedomWorks. This link, if it's the only thing you have, would then nullify your additional info.

And while I agree that both sides have their supporters and organizations with messages and campaigns to galvanize people, there still is no smoking gun to support the notion that this movement is funded and stacked with corporate shills.

Take a look at this.

  • 11 votes
#1.31 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:38 PM EDT
AngryWhiteMan63

Jack. I asked you to show me proof that people have been bussed in to TOWN HALL MEETINGS. You have not done that. Instead, you showed me an article about a traveling protest movement. Not the same. That doesn't support the notion that those folks at the town hall meetings are anything other than ordinary citizens voicing their opinions.

  • 12 votes
#1.32 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:42 PM EDT
Evil 1

Jack;

Where in the article did it say the bus was funded by Freedom Works as you stated in your post #1.21. I think you should get your facts straight and find real proof of your accusations before making statements that have no merit. Furthermore, talk about bringing in ringers to support your cause, take a look at these:

http://www.examiner.com/x-8817-Pittsburgh-Conservative-Examiner~y2009m8d15-Fake-doctors-at-healthcare-town-hall-meetings--Obama-healthcare-supporters-get-desperate

http://blog.heritage.org/2009/08/13/townhall-downfall-astroturf-doctors/

http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/4E5B38C0-1EFF-46BB-903E-50E12E755FDE/

Seems the liar in cheif is guilty of what you are trying to hang the opposite side for. Maybe the left should start by cleaning up their own slate, lest they forget the old adage, "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"!

  • 10 votes
#1.33 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:43 PM EDT
JACK DEATH

Patients First is tied to FreedomWorks and also to Christians patients rights Rick Scott’s group as well.

Heritage is a right wing organization like the Cato institute.

  • 7 votes
#1.34 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:49 PM EDT
Prospero1Deleted
AngryWhiteMan63

Prospero, try posting your comment without the personal attacks.

  • 10 votes
#1.36 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:00 PM EDT
Prospero1

That was a valid, well-supported opinion. Which clearly made you uncomfortable. I can't tell you how totally not surprised I am that you deleted it.

  • 5 votes
#1.37 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:06 PM EDT
bobby h

Angry-

I take some issue with The Weekly Standard's debunking of the FreedomWorks link, but I think that is beside the point. Max Pappas, Vice President of Public Policy at FreedomWorks, discussed his group's involvement with organization of protests and town hall "revolts" on Hardball on August 6th.

MATTHEWS: No, no. But right now, you guys are killing these-you're going to every town meeting in the world, blowing them apart.
PAPPAS: Yes, just like we blew up...

MATTHEWS: How many people you got working-how many people are on your payroll, Dreamworks-FreedomWorks, whatever it's called.?

PAPPAS: Oh, 18.

MATTHEWS: And how do you organize these meetings, these-these-where people do like the ACORN-type meetings, where they show up and...

PAPPAS: Mostly through the Internet.

MATTHEWS: OK.

PAPPAS: Yes. We have about 400,000 on-line members who we can contact with an e-mail database that we have, send them information about when the town halls are, give them briefings on the health care reform plans.

MATTHEWS: so when you watch television, you see a disruption at a congressional meeting in Long Island, you see one in Philly, you see one down in Texas, you can spot-you know that's coming ahead of time. You know each-in other words, you know what's going to happen at each one of these events.

PAPPAS: No, we've been telling people to go to talk to their congressman for 25 years. That's how long FreedomWorks has been around.

MATTHEWS: But you're-but you're basically plotting this stuff.

PAPPAS: We're telling our...

MATTHEWS: People aren't spontaneously getting up in the morning and reading the paper and going, I better go to the congressman's meeting. I'm all upset about health care.

PAPPAS: Oh, no. We tell them when the events are. We just usually don't get this many people on our side to show up.

  • 6 votes
#1.38 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:11 PM EDT
AngryWhiteMan63

Well, just as you would take issue with Weekly Standard, so too do I take issue with anything comming from Chris Matthews. But as you say, that is beside the point. So what have you proven? That a Non-Profit organization contacts it's members and tells them where and when a townhall meeting in their area is occuring. Okay. And that means that ALL protesters at ALL town halls are shills for the Insurance Companies? Big, huge stretch. We're talking Grand Canyon scale. Sorry. Not buying it. I still have seen no evidence to show that the people speaking out against this current bill at the town halls is anything other than an ordinary citizen with real concerns.

Now, I will conceed on one thing. Many of these people may be using these organization's websites to get their information, and an understanding of what the bill is and isn't going to do. But that in itself is no basis for saying they are on the take of the big corporations. Because I would challenge you to tell me where they are to go to get their information, if not to these sites they trust.

  • 12 votes
#1.39 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:24 PM EDT
bobby h

Regardless of the fact that they were said on the Chris Matthews show (and what your opinion of the show is), they were said by an organizing member of FreedomWorks, which is what I was aiming to get it.

That said, I think that we may be getting away from the point that I'm actually trying to make. I am not trying to suggest that there isn't real, legitimate opposition to health care reform, the public option, etc... I am quite confident that there is a reasonable, well thought out opposition argument. Further, I welcome that debate. Perhaps, in a reasonable adult like conversation, if not consensus, at least some understanding, could be reached. You can explain why you think the government is the boogey man and the private sector is the answer, and I can explain why the government is the answer and the private sector is the boogey man (Now, I'm sure neither of our viewpoints in quite that simplistic, but just having some fun....).

What I take issue with is the level of discourse. I feel the faux grass roots organizations, such as FreedomWorks, that are funded by lobbyists, corporations and insurance providers are attempting to make a lot of noise, AND SHOUT VERY LOUDLY, in order to subvert the legitimate debate that you and I might have about the health care system. These are very smart people with a whole lot of money and a whole lot at stake that are intentionally attempting to incite people by playing on certain emotions and deep seated beliefs.

Returning to where this started, with bringing an assault rifle to political rally; that sort of behavior is not only dangerous but also incendiary. It is an attempt to use smoke, mirrors and insults as a means of stonewalling a political debate about a very real issue in this country.

  • 8 votes
#1.40 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:50 PM EDT
AngryWhiteMan63

Returning to where this started, with bringing an assault rifle to political rally; that sort of behavior is not only dangerous but also incendiary. It is an attempt to use smoke, mirrors and insults as a means of stonewalling a political debate about a very real issue in this country.

Good comment. And I applaud you for your opinion. As I have stated elsewhere in this thread, I think the guys were either incredibly brave, or incredibly stupid. But, I support the opinion I have stated in my article. The deeper purpose of the 2nd amendment.

  • 8 votes
#1.41 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:57 PM EDT
bobby h

Angry-

I have to recluse myself from the debate for the afternoon, and do still stand by my opinion that bringing an assault rifle to such and event was both irresponsible and inappropriate, but I thank you for the discussion. My compliments to you for having a real conversation on this rather than firing back with the all too often YOUREWRONG!YOUHAVENOIDEA!DIEANDGOTOHELL!!! response.

Cheers!

  • 12 votes
#1.42 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:13 PM EDT
AngryWhiteMan63

LOL. Have a good day Sir.

  • 12 votes
#1.43 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:20 PM EDT
reddirthippy

liberals wet themselves

No, arm myself yes. I say all liberals should start bringing guns to ever republican event. Meet the palins and newts with weapons. I suspect it will take about two events before before these '2nd amendment supporters' place restrictions on who attends events.

Republicans created Free speech zones I'm sure gun free zones wouldn't be far behind.

On Dec. 6, 2001, Attorney General John Ashcroft informed the Senate Judiciary Committee, “To those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty … your tactics only aid terrorists, for they erode our national unity and … give ammunition to America’s enemies.”.. When Bush travels around the United States, the Secret Service visits the location ahead of time and orders local police to set up “free speech zones” or “protest zones” where people opposed to Bush policies (and sometimes sign-carrying supporters) are quarantined. These zones routinely succeed in keeping protesters out of presidential sight and outside the view of media covering the event.......

Just imagine if obama tried to set up gun zones, Fox and the other conservative medias' collective head would explode. It seems to me ashcroft's words accurately describe shouting right wing media tactics.

When Bush came to the Pittsburgh area on Labor Day 2002, 65-year-old retired steel worker Bill Neel was there to greet him with a sign proclaiming, “The Bush family must surely love the poor, they made so many of us.” The local police, at the Secret Service’s behest, set up a “designated free-speech zone” on a baseball field surrounded by a chain-link fence a third of a mile from the location of Bush’s speech.... Neel refused to go to the designated area and was arrested for disorderly conduct; the police also confiscated his sign. Neel later commented, “As far as I’m concerned, the whole country is a free speech zone. If the Bush administration has its way, anyone who criticizes them will be out of sight and out of mind.”

Carrying a sign was a reason to be arrested during the bush years carrying a gun is now applauded.

  • 10 votes
#1.44 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:56 PM EDT
Want Me To Play Nice? NAH!

A rifle at a town hall meeting? I am guessing he could not get a seat up front?

  • 7 votes
#1.45 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:07 PM EDT
AngryWhiteMan63

I am amussed at the fact that people only want to talk about the free speech zones associated with Bush, but never once mention or acknowledge that these same zones were in effect for the Democratic National Convention, arranged and organized by the DNC.

  • 11 votes
#1.46 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:09 PM EDT
MrCerebellum

The deeper purpose of the 2nd amendment.

I kind've sort've thought it was to help assist in fighting off the British? Has the Revolutionary War still not ended?

  • 7 votes
#1.47 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:22 PM EDT
Chuck1968

A bunch of pussies with guns just showing how freakin' stupid they are, really no surprise there.

They all want us to be skeered of 'em *oohh shivers* lolol!!

Now reformers are showing up enmasse out numbering them.

What ya gonna do now Republi-goons? Start shooting people?

  • 11 votes
#1.48 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:33 PM EDT
madvargr

It doesn't matter - I'm a liberal, and I bet I can shoot straighter than the ReichWingnuts who feel the need to overcompensate by carrying firearms in the open.

  • 10 votes
#1.49 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:44 PM EDT
reddirthippy

be amused all you want as far as I know obama hasn't asked for free speech zones and seems to respect our rights much more than the previous admin and those that attempted to justify its' actions.

the ACLU and antiwar protesters sued to stop these zones(DNC).

  • 5 votes
#1.50 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:47 PM EDT
AngryWhiteMan63

the ACLU and antiwar protesters sued to stop these zones(DNC).

They sued. But they didn't stop them.

  • 8 votes
#1.51 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:50 PM EDT
AngryWhiteMan63

be amused all you want as far as I know obama hasn't asked for free speech zones and seems to respect our rights much more than the previous admin and those that attempted to justify its' actions.

Then what's your point? Water under the bridge. Does bringing up what Bush did do anything for the current situation? No. That's like me bringing up Ruby Ridge, Waco, and all the other Justice Department @!$%# ups. No point.

Sometimes I think you folks are sad that you don't have Bush around to piss and moan about, so you piss and moan about him anyway, even though there's no point to it. Like I said in #1, Get over it!

  • 10 votes
#1.52 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:55 PM EDT
MrCerebellum

Like I said in #1, Get over it!

Believe me we're trying. Yet the whole 'ultra nationalist' mentality that Bush instilled in the troops for 7 years makes it hard for the rest of us to move forward.

  • 6 votes
#1.53 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:00 PM EDT
Juno Hera

I'll stand outside their church and scream at them because they are idiots. Happy?

Patriot Guard Riders got it covered, AWM. An awesome sight, and wonderful tribute to our fallen. The Kansas Crazies are duly dismissed when the PGR shows up, bikes roaring, flags flying . . . and the town on the flanks.

  • 10 votes
#1.54 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:13 PM EDT
Timothy Lingard

Go ahead and carry your weapon if that is the only way to prove your a man. Like Doc Ruth said"Man compensates for what he doesn't have between his legs by having many gun". Go ahead and carry right up to the POTUS and see just what will happen. Just go into the building, if you want to speak your peace. Pack your sidearm your assault rifle. You frigging people just don't get it, do you.

  • 10 votes
#1.55 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:46 PM EDT
jaywow67

AWM

Although no health care the following link does show why so much is being made of town meetings not being grassroots.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/documents/2009/08/oil-industry-memo-on-astroturf-ralies.php?page=1

The gun nut from the NRA was on Matthews tonight and even he admitted that was a poor time to run around with an AR strapped to your back.

  • 4 votes
#1.56 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:07 PM EDT
Malcolm the >:}

So a man shows up with a rifle to a town hall meeting on health care. Make a note of it.

'Nuff said.

  • 2 votes
#1.57 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:18 PM EDT
AngryWhiteMan63

Jay, I have not seen that. I'll have to look at that more. Thanks for the link.

  • 5 votes
#1.58 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:31 PM EDT
LasVegasRocks

AngryWhiteMan63

Second, I in no way am promoting violence against protesters, counter-protesters, or our elected officials.

You obviously haven't listened to the out-of-control protesters. The protesters sound more like two-year-olds who missed their afternoon naps. They seem ready to explode at any moment and, fortunately, they have their semi-automatic rifle to whack a few people who disagree with them.

  • 3 votes
#1.59 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:56 AM EDT
Texasrodeoqueen

Tim McVeigh carries rifle to health care town hall meeting....and rational, thinking people are concerned.

  • 7 votes
#1.60 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:35 AM EDT
Texasrodeoqueen

"code pink pussies" look at how he talks about a bunch of women this must be a bona fide GOP member- they despise women

  • 8 votes
#1.61 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:39 AM EDT
Scott Isaacs

AWM63:

I am amused at the fact that people only want to talk about the free speech zones associated with Bush, but never once mention or acknowledge that these same zones were in effect for the Democratic National Convention, arranged and organized by the DNC.

The rank irony of the comparison is that while, apparently, unarmed anti-war protesters were so dangerous they were kept away from Bush rallies at a distance best-measured by a mile marker, Phoenix police allowed a man that was armed with an assault rifle within close proximity of the POTUS. As a former part of the national security apparatus, completely aside from being a gun rights advocate, that should bother you. It bothers me and you're well aware that I have a concealed carry permit in Ohio, own guns and belong to a sportsmen's club to shoot them. This isn't about asserting we have the right to carry guns, they could have done that at a meeting where the president would not be.

  • 4 votes
#1.62 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:45 AM EDT
wes-291570

When is someone going to pull the trigger..that's what scares me.

  • 4 votes
#1.63 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:34 AM EDT
AngryWhiteMan63

Scott, watch the video linked in #26. It sheds a little more light on their motives.

  • 5 votes
#1.64 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:03 AM EDT
jaywow67

Nothing more than intimidation.

  • 3 votes
#1.65 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:21 AM EDT
California Militia

I am going to agree with angry on this one. Seems to me he hits the nail on the head when he says that people do things we dont agree with that upset us. I feel this way when I see someone who feels the need to burn an American flag. Somewhere along the line some crazy (crazy in my eyes at least) came up with the idea that if they say its a form of speach that its OK. Well when I see it, it irks me to no end. But out of respect for this country and the constitution I look away and curse these people in my mind.

The truth here is that we are all free to be contributing members of society as well as @!$%#s. As every position has a point and counterpoint, the same person doing the same thing can be seen as both depending on where the observer stands.

finally, if I may say, it is nice to see people like bobby and angry able to speak to each other about their differences in opinion and point of view logically. it is only through discourse such as this that we as americans can continue to grow as a nation. the bickering and name calling does nothing but bring us all down.

  • 7 votes
#1.66 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:24 AM EDT
Schroedingers Cat

Yeah Right!..No one Wet themselves! Just more delusions of grandeur from the far out right. When are you people going to realize that no one is scared of you, most of you would not have the guts to fire on anything other than a helpless animal in the woods. But I have no doubt that a crazed NRA member is going to take a shot at a politician or even the POTUS himself, your not helping your case at all when it comes to gun regulations. There will come a point in time where the public at large will have had enough of you cowboys and your gun totin' ways and stand up to you and you will lose all of your rights, I can't wait for that day! And mind you this comes NOT from a liberal even though Jesus Christ and 40 cowboys could not make you believe that I am not a liberal, this comes from a Democrat who owns guns and uses them when the need and time arises. I don't need to carry a phallic symbol as most of you do! Grow up there are no more Indians to kill you cow-BOYS!

  • 6 votes
#1.67 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:44 AM EDT
Sebbydad

the gentleman was making a radio broadcast and it was a publicity stunt. Further the 2nd amendment refers to a militia, and that militia is to be trained and regulated and to be called up when needed by congress, with officers chosen by the states. The Constitution does not mention armed insurrection.

  • 5 votes
#1.68 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:56 AM EDT
Adamdadm01

Nancy Pelosi says that those who oppose her plan for health care are un-American

The only thing un-American is the plan for health care. Free is never free, especially in this day in age.

For those of you who don't know much about what is said in this "Free Health Care Plan" please visit a column of mine that points out all the wrong things in this bill. Since our government wont take the time to fully read it, we the people have and don't like what we see.

http://flustered-69.newsvine.com/_news/2009/08/15/3156017-have-you-read-health-care-bill-3200-

  • 2 votes
#1.69 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:01 AM EDT
Sebbydad

Nancy Pelosi says that those who oppose her plan for health care are un-American

Except she didn't actually say that, but as long as you like how the actual truth works on your planet, please go back there so the rest of us can get on with things here.

  • 5 votes
#1.70 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:58 AM EDT
AngryWhiteMan63

Every news outlet in the free world reports it like this, and there is no denial from her. So until you or anyone else can show me where she says that's not what she meant, then that's what she meant.

  • 5 votes
#1.71 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:01 AM EDT
cycofrenic_man

political statement.. nothing wrong with that....cross it with little "man" syndrome..and its pathetic,then dangerous. Media would do well to ignore these dummies. The packing iron thing at these events will nullify the same action at an actual guns right event. responsible gun owner....I think not

  • 1 vote
#1.72 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:07 AM EDT
JoMan

No no no.

I don't care if you are a conservative or a liberal. These town hall meetings are over the top. A political process is a place you should be able to bring your child... maybe not elementary child, but at least middle school - for them to watch the democratic process.

Would any of you liberal or conservative keep your child there if this ridiculous right wing nut showed up with his love object his gun? NO

This man is not a friend to the political process. It was not his right to draw attention from the discussion on hand. It is no ones right to bully and take over a meeting that is for communication on health care and and make it about him. It wasn't about gun ownership - it was all about him. He's a sick narcissist.

  • 2 votes
#1.73 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:17 AM EDT
Sebbydad

angrywhiteman - as if that did not say it all

http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200908110037

What as actually said: they called health reform opponents "un-American." In fact, in their op-ed, Pelosi and Hoyer wrote that "it is now evident that an ugly campaign is underway not merely to misrepresent the health insurance reform legislation, but to disrupt public meetings and prevent members of Congress and constituents from conducting a civil dialogue" and that "[d]rowning out opposing views is simply un-American."

Drowning out/shouting down/going to a town hall with the intent of disrupting it and preventing others from speaking to their representatives is patently un-American. What she said is clearly what she meant. Mayhap you should listen to more than just Fox, there are other news programs.

Not that I think that you'd actually allow an opposing view or the facts to actually way you. I'd guess you still believe in the death panels and the kenyan birth certificate as well.

  • 1 vote
#1.74 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:05 PM EDT
AngryWhiteMan63

First, you need to reread what I said. I ask for you to show me where Nancy Pelosi disputed it. Not some shille from MSNBC, (and I would tell you the same thing about MSNBC, the Obama network as you would tell me about Fox).

Second:

I'd guess you still believe in the death panels and the kenyan birth certificate as well.

You find in any thread, article, comment, seed, or anywhere where I have supported these positions. I dare you. I double dog dare you. Until you can prove such statements, keep them to yourself. Otherwise, you're spouting lies.

  • 5 votes
#1.75 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:16 PM EDT
Sebbydad

Why does Nancy Pelosi have to rebut a misquote? It has been shown exactly what she has said, yet you choose to believe someone who states that she said something else, or what she actually meant as the truth instead of the actual facts. This is typical of teh angrywhiteman you portray yourself as as well as the GOP in general.

Please prove that you have not supported these positions, when you say you haven't, what you really mean is that you do. It is you sir, that intent to propogate lies on this matter. She said what she said, and she is not responsible with how you choose to interpret her words, and even less repsonsible for your choice to beleive a fabrication over the facts.

  • 1 vote
#1.76 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:24 PM EDT
AngryWhiteMan63

Please prove that you have not supported these positions,

Really? HA! How about you prove to me that you don't support those positions! You're the one that accused me. YOU PROVE IT, or STFU!

  • 4 votes
#1.77 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:44 PM EDT
jaywow67

AWM why the heck should she dispute it. I know some republican/conservatives can read, read the statement. Don't try to wiggle out of what she really said. Being disingenuous about such a thing is really lame.

  • 1 vote
#1.78 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:47 PM EDT
Sebbydad

If you don't have to prove that you don't support them, then why does pelosi have to prove that she did not mean what you think she meant, when it is clear what she actually said? The point is that I proved that your opinion on her comment is not based on the facts. You stated that she said that a specifc group of people were unamerican, she didn't I provided proof of that, and in the face of those facts, you still choose to put the burden on her to change your opinion. If facts are optional to yoru arguments and positions, then they really don't mean much.

  • 1 vote
#1.79 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:23 PM EDT
AngryWhiteMan63

AWM why the heck should she dispute it. I know some republican/conservatives can read, read the statement. Don't try to wiggle out of what she really said. Being disingenuous about such a thing is really lame.

Jay, as I stated in a post way up there, this statement, coupled with all the other things she has said about those protesting against this legislation has come across as saying they are un-American. If this was the only thing she said, I would reconsider the argument. But when you include her statements of swastikas, insurance shills, etc, I'm gonna need to hear from her that she doesn't mean the people are un-American. It's the culmination of the statements and her attitude, as I stated above.

Sebbydad, I suggest you reread my comments above (with bobby) as well. And your comparison is missing one key element. She made those comments, I however have not. I made a statement based on things she has said. You made a statement about me based on......what? Nothing! You made a baseless accusation which you cannot back up. Now, back up your accusation or back off.

  • 3 votes
#1.80 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:50 PM EDT
Lonnie-1003775

it wasn't appropriate that my ex took 100K from me in the divorce either. . . but she did. . ..

  • 1 vote
#1.81 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:46 PM EDT
jaywow67

Are you saying her pointing out the swastikas was wrong? Do you believe because she pointed out that insurance companies are bankrolling some of these anti-health sites was wrong.

You are saying when it's in black and white what a person says you can't believe them. Oh my, that sure is a case of hypocrisy. I won't go back to Bush, but you should.

    #1.82 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:01 PM EDT
    Sebbydad

    Um Angry white man, again, she said what she said, your interpretation, impression and opinion do not change that. I think she was dead on about swastikas and it is a proved fact that many of these folks and organizations who decided to disrupt rational debate were shills for the insurance companies. Please provide any quote on this topic where she is not factually correct.

    • 1 vote
    #1.83 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:16 PM EDT
    manawar

    Where were all you dead beats when the Black PUKE panthers carried their guns!

    The liberal Hypocrisy and their insanity will destroy all of America!

    • 3 votes
    #1.84 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:45 PM EDT
    manawar

    Media Barely Noticed Legal Gun-brandishing By Leftist Black Panthers in 2000 Protest

    By Ken Shepherd | August 18, 2009 - 15:11

    According to the mainstream media, carrying a gun to a protest is just plain crazy, even if perfectly legal. What’s more, it’s indicative of the toxic, hate-filled atmosphere filling conservative protests of President Obama and his plans for health care reform.

    “Hardball” host Chris Matthews and his daytime colleagues at MSNBC, for example, have their used air time to marvel at what would possess an average American citizen to go to a rally near where President Obama is speaking with a gun.

    But the media reaction was markedly different nine years ago when a group of Black Panthers marched on the Texas Republican Party’s state convention on June 2000 brandishing AK-47s. Indeed, that incident itself was chalked up as then-Gov. Bush’s fault by none other than then-MSNBC "Equal Time" co-host Paul Begala

    • 3 votes
    #1.85 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:48 PM EDT
    RMM82

    The Black Panthers don't represent liberals! The modern Black Panthers are just a black version of the Neo-Nazis, and are more of a right-wing separatist group.

    • 1 vote
    #1.86 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:49 PM EDT
    manawar

    And you say this guy represents all Conservatives! WTF the analogy is the POINT!!!

    Now the Black panthers are right wing lol! Insanity is the new liberal!

    • 1 vote
    #1.87 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:58 PM EDT
    Waynester

    and are more of a right-wing separatist group.

    That's the funniest thing I've read on NV all day. Was it a tribute to Orwell?

    • 3 votes
    #1.88 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:02 PM EDT
    RMM82

    And you say this guy represents all Conservatives! WTF the analogy is the POINT!!!

    Now the Black panthers are right wing lol! Insanity is the new liberal!

    Never said that man represents all conservatives, might want to look up the definition of insanity. The new Black Panthers are neo-fascist, fascism is an extreme right-wing ideology.

    and are more of a right-wing separatist group.

    That's the funniest thing I've read on NV all day. Was it a tribute to Orwell?

    The Black Panthers advocate Pan-Africanism, violent racial conflict with whites, and want a separate nation for black people within the United States. I really don't see how that's funny, it's more frightening than anything.

    • 2 votes
    #1.89 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:04 PM EDT
    manawar

    And I ask again WHERE was the out cry from the media and the liberal in general when they did this?

    • 3 votes
    #1.90 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:28 PM EDT
    JoMan

    OMG - all rational has been thrown out the window along with the main subject... black panthers, swastikas, etc....?! A man came into a room full of human beings during a discussion with a gun, there is no good reason for that.

    You people are having your own town hall meeting, and from the sound of it most brought a gun.

      #1.91 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:34 PM EDT
      manawar

      Joman He was out side the meeting read better please. he had the gun over his shoulder so please get ahold of your liberal panties and hike em up!

      • 1 vote
      #1.92 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:41 PM EDT
      jaywow67

      I didn't bring my gun, but I've got a warthog flying cover.

        #1.93 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:41 PM EDT
        Adam Kemp

        Where were all you dead beats when the Black PUKE panthers carried their guns!

        Sorry, I wasn't born yet.

          #1.94 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:07 AM EDT
          AngryWhiteMan63

          Adam, you realize that makes you 9 years old (see 1.85). If that's the case, It's past your bed time son. Run along now.

          • 1 vote
          #1.95 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:17 AM EDT
          Adam Kemp

          I would read the article, but it doesn't appear to be a valid link. Assuming that the headline in the link text is accurate, then how about this: I condemn anyone who brings a gun to a debate or protest. Period. That is an affront to the free democratic process whether it's committed by liberals or conservatives.

          There, are you happy now? This really isn't a conservatives versus liberals issue. Bringing a gun to a political debate has only one purpose: intimidation. It is the antithesis of free speech.

          • 2 votes
          #1.96 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:33 AM EDT
          Azzix

          Bringing a gun to a political debate has only one purpose: intimidation

          That's exactly why I asked the seeder to comment on exactly what he thought the purpose of bringing a firearm to a healthcare debate is. He didn't see fit to reply, which speaks volumes.

          • 2 votes
          #1.97 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:13 AM EDT
          JoMan

          He was out side the meeting read better please. he had the gun over his shoulder

          How does this make any difference in a competent conservative or liberal's decision that this action was wrong any way you look at it? You do not bring a weapon to a political discussion process unless you are purposely looking for trouble and violence. The meeting wasn't about gun ownership it was about health care. No guns were necessary. I continue to stick by my comments and statement on this man's actions.

          manawar - and remember liberals don't wear panties so there's nothing to get in a twist.

          • 1 vote
          #1.98 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:57 AM EDT
          Sebbydad

          Not to mention it was a radio stunt, put on by a milita group that had several members arrested for casing and preparing to blow up federal buildings. Nah, intimidation wasn't what was trying to be done here. This gun totaing event was staged.

          • 1 vote
          #1.99 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:58 AM EDT
          AngryWhiteMan63

          That's exactly why I asked the seeder to comment on exactly what he thought the purpose of bringing a firearm to a healthcare debate is

          Yes you did. Here:

          #38 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:32 AM MDT

          Which had already been discussed, here:

          #7.3 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:38 PM MDT

          The right to bear arms.

          He didn't see fit to reply, which speaks volumes.

          What speaks volumes is someone who asked a question that has already been answered, then tries to criticize about it. Read the comments ahead of yours next time. Tends to make you more credible in your debate.

          • 1 vote
          #1.100 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:49 AM EDT
          Waynester

          , fascism is an extreme right-wing ideology.

          I know that's the conventional wisdom, but maybe you should read Liberal Fascism for a new perspective.

          Videos of author explaining thesis here.

          Care to show where the New Black Panthers have endorsed even one Republican candidate?

          • 3 votes
          #1.101 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:44 AM EDT
          Brandon-801865

          Arizona is an "open-carry" state?

          If only the population would spend more time carrying ideas.

          • 3 votes
          #1.102 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:45 AM EDT
          AZPADDY

          Angrywhiteman

          The idiots that show up armed are setting your "cause" back several years at least. If second amendment fanatics weren't seen as lunatics before these armed stunts, they most cetainly are now.

          BYW, I like your reference to the code pink protesters - it has nothing to do with the armed whackos, but you use it to inflate your image.

          Nice.

          • 3 votes
          #1.103 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:10 AM EDT
          RMM82

          I know that's the conventional wisdom, but maybe you should read Liberal Fascism for a new perspective.

          That is an opinion piece, rather than accepted political science. I could make a similar argument for "Conservative Communism." Conservatives are for small government, no taxes, and the struggle of the "blue collar working man against the elitist." Sounds exactly like Karl Marx's vision of class struggle between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie. My point is that every political doctrine has certain aspects that can draw comparisons with others, but that doesn't change the definition; look fascism up in the dictionary and it will describe it as a right wing ideology.

          Care to show where the New Black Panthers have endorsed even one Republican candidate?

          No I don't, you're confusing fascism with the conservatism. One of the crucial tenets of fascism, is a fervent nationalism and cultural superiority complex. The New Black Panthers believe that African culture is superior to Western white culture, thus neither the Republican party nor the Democratic party support their values. There's a National Geographic documentary on the New Black Panthers, I suggest you watch it. They ask one of them about his thoughts on Obama, and his answer suggests that they see him as some sort of "Uncle Tom," just a pawn of the white man.

          • 3 votes
          #1.104 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:20 AM EDT
          AngryWhiteMan63

          BYW, I like your reference to the code pink protesters - it has nothing to do with the armed whackos, but you use it to inflate your image.

          Yeah, nice AZ. I noticed you went down the page leaving little troll sound bites, but didn't bother with this comment:

          #13.9 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:12 PM MDT

          Pay close attention to this part of it:

          And if that somehow gives someone a negative opinion of me, well, I don't give a @!$%#. Get over it.

          Have a nice day.

          • 3 votes
          #1.105 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:49 AM EDT
          jaywow67

          I know that's the conventional wisdom, but maybe you should read Liberal Fascism for a new perspective.

          Terrible attempt at distraction and distortion. You little use of another branding of fascism as liberal is so weak. Especially trying to use an ultra right wing pundit who calls himself a neoconservative.

          • 1 vote
          #1.106 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:17 PM EDT
          Waynester

          Facts are facts. The progressives did indeed laud fascist Mussolini (and embraced eugenics, too) Maybe you should read the book instead of attacking it unarmed.

          • 1 vote
          #1.107 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:51 PM EDT
          Waynester

          "Conservative Communism." Conservatives are for small government,

          No such thing. Communism is the biggest of big government. The book is in fact well researched and chock full of facts.

          • 1 vote
          #1.108 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:53 PM EDT
          Waynester

          nor the Democratic party support their values.

          I suppose that's why they endorsed Obama? Or was that only a racial thing?

          • 2 votes
          #1.109 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:55 PM EDT
          RMM82

          No such thing. Communism is the biggest of big government. The book is in fact well researched and chock full of facts.

          Not as far as the works of Karl Marx is concerned. There has never been a purely communistic state, states like the Soviet Union and Maoist China were totalitarian dictatorships.

          • 3 votes
          #1.110 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:37 PM EDT
          RMM82

          Facts are facts. The progressives did indeed laud fascist Mussolini (and embraced eugenics, too) Maybe you should read the book instead of attacking it unarmed.

          The writer of that book is a neo-con, I don't have to read it to get the gist of what it says; it's merely the author's opinion, not universally accepted fact. His views of "liberal fascism" are based purely on his own political biases. Show me a book that equates liberalism to fascism written by someone who isn't super right-wing and maybe I'll give it some merit.

          • 3 votes
          #1.111 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:44 PM EDT
          Scott Isaacs

          AWM63:

          Scott, watch the video linked in #26. It sheds a little more light on their motives.

          I have to say that, after watching the video, I actually feel l saw something worse than the original. Even politicians have a law against creating false news spots to use as an outlet to millions of Americans touting their policies or political views and we both know how ethically dodgy politicians from all parties are. Plus, I have a general rule of thumb that if someone isn't up front at the beginning that what you're watching isn't spontaneous, everything they say needs to be questioned and scrutinized because they've tried to get over on you at the very start of their relationship with you. It's something I strive to avoid when writing on my column here at Newsvine... if there's something germane to what I'm writing but it's negative towards my position, I include it anyway because of situations like this: it looks like I was withholding pertinent information in an attempt to persuade my readers with something other than a good argument.

          • 2 votes
          #1.112 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:21 PM EDT
          Scott Isaacs

          manawar:

          I'm typically wary of people that can't spell (it's manowar, BTW) but I'm going to respond to you anyway.

          Take the Black Panthers to jail when they show up with guns to a political rally or meeting. Guns have no place in political discourse. When someone brings a gun to a political meeting and I am their opponent I have two options: fold or bring my own gun. If I bring my own gun, where does the escalation stop? I'll be happy to suspend my 2nd amendment rights when attending a political rally because I don't plan to shoot my political opponents.

          • 3 votes
          #1.113 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:28 PM EDT
          Waynester

          The writer of that book is a neo-con, I don't have to read it to get the gist of what it says; it's merely the author's opinion,

          Are you saying that progressives didn't laud and support Mussolini? Those are facts, not opinion. There is another book I remember stubling upon with a similar theses, I'll let you know when I find it again.

          • 2 votes
          #1.114 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:31 PM EDT
          Scott Isaacs

          Waynester:

          Facts are facts. The progressives did indeed laud fascist Mussolini (and embraced eugenics, too) Maybe you should read the book instead of attacking it unarmed.

          Wow... did you actually say that? If we're going to zoom out and look at individual centuries, remember when conservatives were keeping black slaves, tying runaway slaves to trees and letting their hunting dogs gnaw them to death and seceding from the United States to protect a state's "right" for its citizens to keep other human beings in bondage and task them to work for meager food and rickety shantys while causing a war that killed over 620,000 Americans? Yeah, I didn't think you wanted to discuss this off-topic tangent.

          AWM, delete all of this "liberals are pro-tyranny" crap and anything off-topic Waynester was responding to and knock out this post while you're at it. I'm here to talk bearing arms with you and others, not watch people call me the intellectual heir of Mussolini and Hitler.

          • 3 votes
          #1.115 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:33 PM EDT
          Scott Isaacs

          Waynester:

          Are you saying that progressives didn't laud and support Mussolini? Those are facts, not opinion. There is another book I remember stubling upon with a similar theses, I'll let you know when I find it again.

          If you really think RMM82 is so problematic a poster, I'll tell you what Bill Harrison told me on his D-Day thread when I started arguing with a douche that called WWII veterans warmongers: Don't Feed The Troll. It's good advice. I took it. You should.

          • 2 votes
          #1.116 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:35 PM EDT
          Waynester

          Wow... did you actually say that? If we're going to zoom out and look at individual centuries, remember when conservatives were keeping black slaves, t

          This wasn't that long ago, Scott. And remember, the Republican party began as a anti-slavery group. "Liberals" of the day certainly held slaves as well.

          Here's the other book: Three New Deals: Reflections on Roosevelt’s America, Mussolini’s Italy, and Hitler’s Germany, 1933–1939, by Wolfgang Schivelbusch

          Review here. Excerpt:

          On May 7, 1933, just two months after the inauguration of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, the New York Times reporter Anne O’Hare McCormick wrote that the atmosphere in Washington was “strangely reminiscent of Rome in the first weeks after the march of the Blackshirts, of Moscow at the beginning of the Five-Year Plan.…America today literally asks for orders.” The Roosevelt administration, she added, “envisages a federation of industry, labor and government after the fashion of the corporative State as it exists in Italy.”

          If you really think RMM82 is so problematic a poster,

          I never said or implied he is a "problematic poster", nor do I think he is a troll. Mind your own business. And that goes for AWM's moderating decisions as well.

          • 3 votes
          #1.117 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:41 PM EDT
          Scott Isaacs

          AWM:

          This is what Pelosi said:

          Drowning out opposing views is simply un-American.

          Now, she's clearly talking about people that have shown up to town hall meetings and resorted to screaming, reciting the Pledge of Allegiance and anything else but actually discussing the subject: healthcare reform. The only question left is whether you've misunderstood what she said or if you actually think that grinding a meeting to a halt because you can't win the debate on facts is an acceptable behavior in a democratic republic. I can't imagine you support such a thing because it, in fact, goes against everything the American political system is meant to be about: reasoned debate and an educated populace discussing their informed views with their elected representatives. I think it's ridiculous and that average people should stand up and say that it's bull@!$%# which is gumming up the machine that is our political system. Pelosi says things I disagree with, but this isn't one of them.

          • 2 votes
          #1.118 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:44 PM EDT
          Scott Isaacs

          Waynester:

          This wasn't that long ago, Scott. And remember, the Republican party began as a anti-slavery group. "Liberals" of the day certainly held slaves as well.

          I'm not looking for an argument with you but I'm going to have a short discussion on this because I consider us friends. The Republican Party was created as the foremost political outgrowth of liberals in that era of American history. Democrats that thought slavery should not be spread into the territories switched parties and the Republican Party united anti-slavery politicians and citizens of all stripes. The Democratic Party was too dependent on its Southern wing to be able to take a credible position on slavery which drove everyone for anything but maintaining slavery indefinitely in the South or for that and expansion to the new territories into the Republican Party which is what allowed the Republicans to win the presidency in the first place since they were a relatively new party. Grand Old Party: A History of the Republicans by Lewis Gould and Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln cover the topic in excellent fashion.

          • 3 votes
          #1.119 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:00 PM EDT
          jaywow67

          Way

          Facts are facts.

          Facts are only facts to you when you say them or you read them from some wingnut. You believe only when someone days something that falls inline with your narrow view.

            #1.120 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:48 PM EDT
            manawar

            Hey Scott, sorry to offend you but I can use any spelling I want so it does not refer to manOwar so you can take your panties and hike them up too!

            Funny how you tried to get my goat with the thinly veiled attack. Silly

              #1.121 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:35 PM EDT
              Scott Isaacs

              manawar:

              It wasn't veiled. :-)

              • 1 vote
              #1.122 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:14 PM EDT
              Azzix

              The right to bear arms.

              He didn't see fit to reply, which speaks volumes.

              What the hell kind of a jackass thinks a healthcare debate is the place to demonstrate the wonders of the second amendment? Maybe I should show up to a debate over fiscal policy with a bunch of kids in tow to demonstrate the need for childcare?

              You have to admit his purpose what either a complete non-sequitur, or his purpose was to intimidate. Neither purpose is appropriate.

              If you had a shred of integrity you'd admit that the reason the guy was there with his gun was to intimidate; to send a message that if the political winds don't blow the way he chooses, he'll break out his weapons.

              Read the comments ahead of yours next time. Tends to make you more credible in your debate.

              Answer honestly next time. Tends to make you more credible.

              • 1 vote
              #1.123 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:41 PM EDT
              manawar

              I know scott, just like the....what word do you call your self......hmmmm

              POMPOUS

                #1.124 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:11 AM EDT
                Scott Isaacs

                manawar:

                I don't call myself pompous... why would I do that? Silly. LOL

                • 1 vote
                #1.125 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:39 AM EDT
                BrianAgness

                No such thing. Communism is the biggest of big government. The book is in fact well researched and chock full of facts.

                What's really funny about Liberal Fascism is that it doesn't have many substantiated facts at all... And Jonah Goldberg decides to ignore this to favor his own ideas. I read Liberal Fascism and its not only poorly written, but also obviously biased. There are entire pages where he goes off on tangents not related to his argument, and most of those tangents end up comparing Hillary Clinton to Stalin or making no sense whatsoever. From page 119:

                Indeed, it is very difficult not to notice how the progressives fit the objective criteria for a fascist movement set forth by so many students of the field. Progressivism was largely a middle-class movement equally opposed to runaway capitalism above and Marxist radicalism below. Progressives hoped to find a middle course between the two, what Fascists called the "Third Way" or what Richard Ely, mentor to both Wilson and Roosevelt, called the "golden mean" between laissez-faire individualism and Marxist socialism...

                Here's the part where he really goes off the deep end.

                (cont.)... Their chief desire was to impose a unifying, totalitarian, moral order that regulated the individual inside his home and out.

                Maybe it's just me, but I'd say not just liberals, but average Americans would fit into that group that believes in the "Third Way." I don't know anyone who is for totally unrestricted capitalism, nor Marxist socialism. Most want to find a way to use restrictions to help gain workers rights, while maintaining a predominantly free-market system.

                Second his facts do not support his claim that they wanted to impose a totalitarian moral order on citizens. He was talking about economics and then used economic ideology to support that liberals wanted to regulate everything you do. There are no citations. This is purely opinion.

                Third. I'd say that last part applies to some conservatives too...

                impose a unifying, totalitarian, moral order that regulated the individual inside his home and out.

                Isn't this what religious activists want to do? Infuse religion into government to mandate a moral order to everyone? I could take it a step further and say that conservatives are creating a moral order by opposing minimum wage, and progressive tax structure, that maintains the rich as the leaders of the country and the poor as followers... but then I would start sounding like a liberal Jonah Goldberg.

                Goldberg is a Neo-con to the core, just take a look at this ad for his magazine the National Review. Or better yet just check out the Blog. I'd be surprised if anything he put into that book could actually be cited as facts.

                  #1.126 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:03 AM EDT
                  Waynester

                  I'd be surprised if anything he put into that book could actually be cited as facts.

                  So he just made up all the footnoted references? You really can't have a problem with his facts, what you have a problem with are the conclusions he draws from those facts, which is legitimate.

                  I appreciate your at least somewhat thoughtful criticism, though I see you couldn't resist using the "neo-con" label as an attempted smear. The blog for Liberal Fascism is actually here. He often links the criticisms of others on it as well as material that supports his thesis.

                  • 1 vote
                  #1.127 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:15 AM EDT
                  demmywemmy

                  2010:

                  Man carries Rifle to Health Care Protest……And the Liberals wet themselves.

                  1969:

                  Black Panther carries rifle to neighborhood's rights protest...And the conservatives wet themselves.

                  I feel a song coming on....a bit folky...a bit protest....Mmmm....here we go....

                  __________the man he's___________gonna destroy our freedoms________

                  __________pick up your guns, my friends- and ________________let'em know who's a)boss or b) our loving, free-thinking leader...__________For it's a fight to a) the death b) for the love of all mankind, and in this we will make them free. Oh yeah Oh Yeah.

                  a)=you b)=sweet lil old me.

                  And a big shout out to angrywhiteman63! Even if I am a few months late!

                  • 1 vote
                  #1.128 - Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:42 PM EST
                  Reply
                  Blearc

                  What would have been the reaction is in 2003 people showed up to Bush functions armed protesting the cost, fraud, and waste of taxpayer dollars on a war of choice in Iraq?

                  You think those people would not be detained and labeled anti-american? That it wouldn't have been seen as a threat against president Bush by Faux news?

                  • 31 votes
                  Reply#2 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:39 PM EDT
                  Jimster

                  What would have been the reaction is in 2003 people showed up to Bush functions armed protesting the cost, fraud, and waste of taxpayer dollars on a war of choice in Iraq?

                  They'd be dead.

                  ...and the hypocritical right would've cheered., saying that they stopped another terrorist.

                  When the right does it?

                  **crickets**

                  • 22 votes
                  #2.1 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:46 PM EDT
                  hemphill

                  I think that the invitations actually read "leave your guns at home or cheney will go hunting with you". Bush didn't attend open events.

                  • 11 votes
                  #2.2 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:47 PM EDT
                  Jimster

                  I'd like to see Cheney go hunting with this guy here

                  • 7 votes
                  #2.3 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:05 PM EDT
                  AngryWhiteMan63

                  Yeah, it's easy to speculate about what might have happened. But it didn't. This did.

                  • 8 votes
                  #2.4 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:19 PM EDT
                  reddirthippy

                  their is no speculation people were arrested for carrying signs.

                  • 7 votes
                  #2.5 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:03 PM EDT
                  Blearc

                  Yeah, it's easy to speculate about what might have happened. But it didn't. This did.

                  Your right we cant speculate what would have happened if protesters showed up with assault weapons. It couldn't reach that point Bush and the GOP were such pussies they cowered in fear and arrested people for T-shirts:

                  http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=14041

                  Did you speak out then for the violations of rights? Or is only the 2nd important to you?

                  • 9 votes
                  #2.6 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:06 PM EDT
                  Texasrodeoqueen

                  Bush didn't have town hall meetings much- his handlers didn't want his idiocy to show

                  Bush "town halls" were by invitation and careful screening only, as were the "questions" asked him

                  A person could not get in his "town hall meetings" with even a negative T shirt on, much less a gun

                  • 7 votes
                  #2.7 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:37 AM EDT
                  robynlewisTX.

                  MORE Bush bashin? <yawn>

                  Bush "townhalls" were by invitation and careful screening only

                  What a coincidence, so are Barry's!

                  What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, honey!

                  • 5 votes
                  #2.8 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:40 AM EDT
                  Azzix

                  What a coincidence, so are Barry's!

                  While that's true -- the Secret Service insists on that sort of thing, you're displaying the intellectual dishonesty that's the hallmark of the Bush Conservative.

                  The Bush townhall meetings allowed no dissent. If you asked a dissenting question, you were quickly ejected. The Obama townhall meetings have all allowed dissenting questions.

                  If the subject matter makes you <yawn> I suggest you not read it, rather than being dishonest about it. Tilting at windmills when the facts are so obvious and documented just kills your credibility.

                  • 2 votes
                  #2.9 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:58 AM EDT
                  robynlewisTX.

                  The Obama townhall meetings have allowed dissenting questions

                  From planters, like the little girl and her remark about "mean posters", yes I'm sure she thought of that ALL BY HERSELF. Talk about dishonesty, tsk tsk tsk.

                  • 4 votes
                  #2.10 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:11 AM EDT
                  F Pfarr

                  If you want to go down this road, here's a couple of tidbits for you to noodle on. You damn libs ALWAYS come back to Bush. Ok, now the shoe's on the other foot. Let's do just that.

                  You Obama supporters, be honest now. Read the following and
                  tell me how you would have reacted:

                  If George W. Bush had made a joke at the expense of the
                  Special Olympics, would you have approved?

                  If George W. Bush had given Gordon Brown a set of
                  inexpensive and incorrectly formatted DVDs, when Gordon Brown had given
                  him a thoughtful and historically significant gift, would you have
                  approved?

                  If George W. Bush had given the Queen of England an iPod
                  containing videos of his speeches, would you have thought this
                  embarrassingly narcissistic and tacky?

                  If George W. Bush had bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia,
                  would you have approved?

                  If George W. Bush had visited Austria and made reference to
                  the non-existent "Austrian language," would you have brushed it off as a
                  minor slip?

                  If George W. Bush had filled his cabinet and circle of
                  advisers with people who cannot seem to keep current on their income
                  taxes, would you have approved?

                  If George W. Bush had been so Spanish illiterate as to refer
                  to "Cinco de Cuatro" in front of the Mexican ambassador when it was the
                  fourth of May (Cuatro de Mayo), and continued to flub it when he tried
                  again, would you have winced in embarrassment?

                  If George W. Bush had mis-spelled the word advice would you
                  have hammered him for it for years like Dan Quayle and potatoe as
                  "proof" of what a dunce he is?

                  If George W. Bush had burned 9,000 gallons of jet fuel to go
                  plant a single tree on "Earth Day", would you have concluded he's a
                  hypocrite?

                  If George W. Bush's administration had okayed Air Force One

                  flying low over millions of people followed by a jet fighter in downtown
                  Manhattan causing widespread panic, would you have wondered whether they
                  actually "get" what happened on 9-11?

                  If George W. Bush had been the first President to need a
                  teleprompter installed to be able to get through a press conference,
                  would you have laughed and said this is more proof of how inept he is on
                  his own and is really controlled by smarter men behind the scenes?

                  If George W. Bush had failed to send relief aid to flood
                  victims throughout the Midwest with more people killed or made homeless
                  than in New Orleans , would you want it made into a major ongoing
                  political issue with claims of racism and incompetence?

                  If George W. Bush had ordered the firing of the CEO of a
                  major corporation, even though he had no constitutional authority to do
                  so, would you have approved?

                  If George W. Bush had proposed to double the national debt,
                  which had taken more than two centuries to accumulate, in one year,
                  would you have approved?

                  If George W. Bush had then proposed to double the debt again
                  10 times within that year, would you have approved?

                  If George W. Bush had reduced your retirement plan's
                  holdings of GM stock by 90% and given the unions a majority stake in GM,
                  would you have approved?

                  If George W. Bush had spent hundreds of thousands of dollars
                  to take Laura Bush to a play in NYC, would you have approved ?

                  So, tell me again, what is it about Obama that makes him so
                  brilliant and impressive? Can't think of anything? Don't worry. He's
                  done all the above in just 8 months -- so be patient you've still got
                  three years and four months to come up with an answer.

                  • 3 votes
                  #2.11 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:53 PM EDT
                  AZPADDY

                  What is ironic, and the armed nut doesn't get, is that if this were "revolutionary days" as he referenced, "back in 1776", he'd be owned as property - a slave.

                  • 1 vote
                  #2.12 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:16 AM EDT
                  Reply
                  Tyler Durden-330839

                  Spanish Civil War, anyone? I wonder who'll be part of the International Brigades.

                  • 2 votes
                  Reply#3 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:13 PM EDT
                  Malcolm the >:}

                  Just what I was thinking. Expecting the firts shots to be fired by the crazies. Will Newt be the next Franco?

                  • 1 vote
                  #3.1 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:17 PM EDT
                  AZPADDY

                  Whatever happens, I gaurantee two things: 1. Newt will still be fat. 2. Newt will still be full O' $hit!

                  • 3 votes
                  #3.2 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:17 AM EDT
                  Reply
                  Frank Davenport

                  How else do you expect the uneducated shelf stockers at the local auto parts store to partake in debate eloquently.

                  They can't...

                  Hopefully the adult onset diabetes gets them...

                  • 9 votes
                  Reply#4 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:22 PM EDT
                  AngryWhiteMan63

                  Nice elitist comment there Mr. Davenport.

                  • 12 votes
                  #4.1 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:33 PM EDT
                  Adrian ThornDeleted
                  Evil 1

                  Mr. Davenport:

                  You really showed your education with post #4. LMAO! This just goes to show the supporters of Obama and their true colors. If you can't say anything constructive or add anything worthwhile to the discussion attack! I'll be waiting for you to blame Bush or play the race card, it shouldn't be long! ROTFLMAO! The lefties sure do get touchy when Obamas lies and his failures come to light and they have to accept the facts. Damn listening to them and reading their posts is the best comic relief going.

                  • 6 votes
                  #4.3 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:53 PM EDT
                  Reply
                  ex military Republican

                  I believe both Conservatives and Liberals should carry assult rifles to all protests and town hall meetings. How about the ok corral evry day at noon for all the terrorist groups from both sides. Free AK's and ammunition just like the Roman day spectacles.

                  Let the U tube enthusiasts have a field day.

                  • 7 votes
                  Reply#5 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:23 PM EDT
                  AZPADDY

                  Funny you should mention the OK corral. Sheriff Wyatt Earp usually had a policy of all firearms being checked in with him at his discretion.

                  Second amendment protesters would have been disarmed, or told to leave, then told to STFU!! Maybe the Clanton bros. were second amendment fanatics too, huh? Doesn't sound like Doc Holliday cared much for the second amendment either.

                  Too bad our Maricopa county sheriff doesn't have the guts of Wyatt Earp.

                    #5.1 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:27 AM EDT
                    Reply
                    ScienceGuy-356641

                    A little common sense goes a long way...

                    You don't smoke while filling your gas tank, and you don't bring a gun to a volatile political event.

                    • 20 votes
                    #6 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:33 PM EDT
                    Cipher-0

                    I would concur. While they certainly have the right to bring their firearms to the protests, my question is what is the reason for it?

                    It may be legal, but it simply doesn't make sense to me.

                    • 13 votes
                    #6.1 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:37 PM EDT
                    nyghtshayde

                    ScienceGuy-good comparison-It wouldn't be appropriate to carry a gun to church or school either.I support the right to bear arms,but there is a time and a place.All they are doing is starting the next wave of anti-gun legislation.Thanks-idiots.

                    • 15 votes
                    #6.2 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:46 PM EDT
                    JACK DEATH

                    -It wouldn't be appropriate to carry a gun to church

                    Oh but, they do on Sundays and hold raffles there for a handgun as well.

                    • 5 votes
                    #6.3 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:51 PM EDT
                    AngryWhiteMan63

                    volatile political event

                    Good term. Didn't some of the other protests turn violent, with union thugs getting arrested for assault?

                    • 9 votes
                    #6.4 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:54 PM EDT
                    JACK DEATH

                    WRONG some were teabaggers and from FreedomWorks and a ST Louis Post reporter.

                    • 6 votes
                    #6.5 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:02 PM EDT
                    AngryWhiteMan63

                    WRONG some were teabaggers and from FreedomWorks and a ST Louis Post reporter.

                    So no union thugs got arrested?

                    • 7 votes
                    #6.6 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:18 PM EDT
                    JACK DEATH

                    NO

                    • 4 votes
                    #6.7 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:42 PM EDT
                    AngryWhiteMan63

                    WRONG!

                    http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2009/08/tea-party-protesters-attacked-1-man.html

                    Watch the video. Then read the article from the St. Louis paper about who was actually arrested. Note that they are from the SEIU.

                    • 7 votes
                    #6.8 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:13 PM EDT
                    JACK DEATH

                    Let’s define by your term “union thugs”.

                    So you cannot back that up. But, there were organized teabaggers there.

                    Note I did not call them thugs as you have done I called them what they are corporate lemmings.

                    • 7 votes
                    #6.9 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:29 PM EDT
                    AngryWhiteMan63

                    LOL! You crack me up. Union members (thugs, and by the way, I am a member of the IBEW) were arrested. You were wrong.

                    • 8 votes
                    #6.10 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:44 PM EDT
                    Evil 1

                    So it was totally acceptable for this to happen at polling places during the election and then let thet antagonizers and intimidators go unpunished, give them a pass?

                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neGbKHyGuHU

                    The hypocrisy of the left knows no bounds!

                    • 7 votes
                    #6.11 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:49 PM EDT
                    JACK DEATH

                    So union member(s) being arrested. So were teabaggers and one reporter. I have belonged to IATSE so what. You use the term thug not me.

                    • 2 votes
                    #6.12 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:51 PM EDT
                    AngryWhiteMan63

                    And your point is what? You said no, simply because I called them thugs? Creative, I'll give you that much, but nontheless, you were wrong.

                    • 8 votes
                    #6.13 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:58 PM EDT
                    Juno Hera

                    LOL.

                    Is the danger point being missed? If one is worried about violence, is it not just PRUDENT to come prepared to protect yourself????

                    • 9 votes
                    #6.14 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:17 PM EDT
                    TicTac-804370

                    You can protect yourself without a gun genius. It is called a fist fight. If you disagree with somebody and it gets violent a fist fight will ensue, be broken up and then they go their separate ways. Not so when guns are involved. Look, I am all for gun rights ( I am a democrat), but you have to a show a little fore thought in these kind of situations. Just because you CAN bring a gun does not mean you HAVE to bring a gun. I do not feel the need to carry a gun on me 24/7, especially at very charged and unstable public meeting. What good could possibly come from bringing a firearm to a public meeting? Now what could possibly go wrong?

                      #6.15 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:37 PM EDT
                      greg-709692

                      You can protect yourself without a gun genius. It is called a fist fight

                      The Mayor of Milwaukee, Tom Barrett just proved that isn't true. He just got out of the hospital for protecting someone else, after a guy beat him with a pipe.

                      • 4 votes
                      #6.16 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:00 PM EDT
                      AZPADDY

                      And the guy is in jail, and the Mayor is OK.

                      So....what's your point?

                        #6.17 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:30 AM EDT
                        KGMO

                        Here's the article from stltoday.comit's the St. Louis Post-Dispatch website.

                        It doesn't identify anyone of the people arrested as being part of any union, and the guy who was assaulted was payed by the Tea Party organization. That makes him a lobbyist I guess.

                        • 2 votes
                        #6.18 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:26 PM EDT
                        AngryWhiteMan63

                        KGMO, check out this link.

                        http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/08/eye_witness_to_st_louis_scuffl.asp

                        They were SEIU Thugs.

                        • 1 vote
                        #6.19 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:05 AM EDT
                        jaywow67

                        AWM

                        Why do you consider them thugs, is that your way of dehumanizing them or just your way of trying to call them names?

                        If you are going to call them thugs, can we call those spittle driven teabaggers at the town hall meetings thugs also?

                        • 1 vote
                        #6.20 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:01 AM EDT
                        Reply
                        alkimija

                        Carrying a loaded firearm while also carrying a sign stating that it is "time to water the tree of liberty" is a threat.

                        There are limits to all of our freedoms. Freedom of speech doesn't give you the right to yell fire in a crowded theatre. Freedom to bear arms doesn't give you the right to show up at a political rally bearing signs threatening the life of the President.

                        Nobody's "wetting" themselves over this incident. However, we are calling it for what it is: a display of force in a political venue. Civilised society does not "debate" at the end of a gun.

                        • 16 votes
                        #7 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:05 PM EDT
                        AngryWhiteMan63

                        Good comment alkimija. I can see you point. Did the man carry a sign threatening the President?

                        • 7 votes
                        #7.1 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:14 PM EDT
                        alkimija

                        Please watch this video on YouTube. At the 0:46 mark, it shows an armed man carrying a large sign upon which is written, "IT IS TIME TO WATER THE TREE OF LIBERTY."

                        Now, I have no problem with people bearing arms in general. Actually, I'm in favour of it, and have written passionately in favour of doing so many a time. However, just like with everything else, there are appropriate ways to engage in any legal behaviours, and inappropriate ways. So what this guy was doing was not illegal in any sense, but I do believe it was unethical.

                        And I believe it harms Americans' right to bear arms in general. Once the government begins associating political protest of any sort with the potential for violence, or heaven forbid, actual violence, those rights are going to be further eroded. It only takes a few bad apples to ruin it for everyone.

                        • 11 votes
                        #7.2 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:21 PM EDT
                        AngryWhiteMan63

                        but I do believe it was unethical.

                        And I will respect that opinion. Frankly, I think these guys were either incredibly brave, or incredibly stupid. BUT, I do believe that they have a right to their form of protest, and political statements. And, I do agree with their statements. Not so much that they will meet out violence to those who oppose their views, but to a rather deeper look at the 2nd amendment, in that an armed populace is necessary to prevent an oppressive government.

                        • 6 votes
                        #7.3 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:38 PM EDT
                        alkimija

                        Respectfully, a right to protest, and a right to a political statement, somehow becomes silenced when your opposition shows up to a debate fully armed and bearing a sign indicating their willingness to kill and die because they disagree with you.

                        I cannot characterise these acts as anything but an attempt at intimidation.

                        You see this sort of thing happening in countries where there is little law and order, btw. Countries on the verge of collapse or which have collapsed completely. Civilised, Western nations do not have people showing up to venues hosting their democratically elected leader with firearms.

                        Responsible gun owners will find themselves losing (yet again) because of a handful of irresponsible folks who can't seem to see where the line is drawn between common sense and crazy.

                        • 13 votes
                        #7.4 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:38 PM EDT
                        ArletaDeleted
                        usfreestar

                        alkimija, angrywhite -

                        Nice to see both your relevant and thoughtful comments in between the usual liberal nonsense attacks on an otherwise good article.

                        A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

                        Yeah - that's "merely" 2nd Amendment of our Constitution!

                        But is does not mean gun owners (like myself) should not show good judgment in where and when we bring our guns. And it does not mean you should be yelled at for following the Constitution, either.

                        ;)

                        • 7 votes
                        #7.6 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:47 PM EDT
                        AngryWhiteMan63

                        But is does not mean gun owners (like myself) should not show good judgment in where and when we bring our guns.

                        This is a good comment, and mirrors many that have been made here. As I have said, I neither condemn, nor condone their actions. Could they have used better judgement? Yes. Did they have a right to do what they did? Again yes.

                        One of the themes that I have debated here is the notion that the protester's actions offend. In this case, they offend many people's notion of good judgement and ethics (a theme based upon intimidation). But, not being offended is not a right. AS I have stated, Code Pink offends me. (They were at that protest by the way.) The Hillsborough Babtist Church offends me. Burning a Flag offends me. But, it's their right to do so.

                        So, while you may not agree with what they did, and it may offend your senses, they have a right to do so.

                        • 8 votes
                        #7.7 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:00 PM EDT
                        usfreestar

                        Yup.

                        • 7 votes
                        #7.8 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:24 PM EDT
                        Adam Kemp

                        What you don't seem to realize is that bringing a gun to a political debate is an affront to the very freedoms you are defending. You say you don't "condone or condemn" this action, but you should be condemning it. It is unambiguously condemnable. What this person did goes against the very concept of freedom of speech and open discourse, which is the foundation of the first amendment. That principle is even more important than the one protected by the second. An armed citizenry without a protected freedom of speech is incredibly dangerous.

                        • 7 votes
                        #7.9 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:00 PM EDT
                        AngryWhiteMan63

                        What you don't seem to realize is that bringing a gun to a political debate is an affront to the very freedoms you are defending.

                        I'm reminded of the Swiss. In their history, only those who showed up at the town halls armed with swords were permitted to vote. The notion being that the right to vote was reserved to those who were prepared to defend that right.

                        I disagree with your opinion Adam. While armed, there is no indication that these folks were confrontational in their protests. Indeed, physical violence by union thugs has occurred at protests without weapons. So at which protest was the First Amendment more protected? One where a few individuals showed up with weapons? Or one where people were assaulted for their beliefs and opinions, with no apparent weapons present?

                        • 6 votes
                        #7.10 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:37 PM EDT
                        JACK DEATH

                        You really like using that term union THUGs’ don't you like it carries some special meaning for you? Why not just call the Republikans what they really are greedy, selfish and self centered thieves and if the show of armed people will give them their way so be it. Besides you do not live in St. Louis, MO do you? I do and you are WRONG as you have been all day.

                          #7.11 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:59 PM EDT
                          AngryWhiteMan63

                          Jack, I noticed you refered to the Tea Party protesters as Teabaggers. Pot/Kettle comes to mind.

                          I don't give a @!$%# where you live Jack. I showed you the video evidence, and your own newspaper confirmed it. SEIU members were arrested. End of story.

                          • 5 votes
                          #7.12 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:13 PM EDT
                          JACK DEATH

                          So were teabaggers and the reporter. I rest my case.

                            #7.13 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:15 PM EDT
                            AngryWhiteMan63

                            Well gee Jack. I know the reports are that 6 people including a reporter were arrested. So that leaves 5. Now I have been able to determine that 2 of those WERE SEIU members, for the attack on Kenneth Gladney. And a woman with them was arrested as well. So that's 3, leaving 2. Now from this source, we hear from Brian Matthews, who says "he had been inside the forum because he is in favor of a public option for health care." He and his companion, a woman were arrested as they were leaving.

                            Unfortunately, I cannot find anything to confirm your assertion that a Tea Party protester was arrested. If you have reliable sources to back it up, I would like to see it.

                            On the other hand, when you do google "SEIU arrested" you find many more incidents of arrests across the country. While they are not specific to Town Hall Meetings on health care, they do involve violence. So I would say the evidence would support a label of "thugs". "Child Molester" also seems to fit, in at least one case.

                            • 5 votes
                            #7.14 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:58 PM EDT
                            JACK DEATH

                            I do know that this supposed victim is unemployed and is a teabagger and has no health insurance. No that’s irony for you.

                            • 2 votes
                            #7.15 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:05 PM EDT
                            jaywow67

                            has no health insurance.

                            He said he didn't have health insurance, solicited funds for the injuries he claimed to have received but in reality has health insurance under his wife's insurance and his injuries were minor.

                            • 2 votes
                            #7.16 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:16 PM EDT
                            AngryWhiteMan63

                            Yeah, I think he's pushing the injuries a bit for the possible lawsuit. But, when I was a Cop, we always encouraged assault victims to go to the hospital, as it helped with prosecution. I'm not going to comment on that.

                            • 4 votes
                            #7.17 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:28 PM EDT
                            Adam Kemp

                            While armed, there is no indication that these folks were confrontational in their protests.

                            Bull@!$%#. This is incredibly dishonest. You do not come to a debate armed with an assault rifle unless it is to intimidate your opponents. Calling this some kind of symbol of freedom is just plain bull@!$%#. There's no other word for it.

                            • 5 votes
                            #7.18 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:02 AM EDT
                            Steve Watts

                            You do not come to a debate armed with an assault rifle unless it is to intimidate your opponents.

                            Whether he meant to intimidate isn't really a question either of you can address for sure. I tend to think it probably was to intimidate, at least partly, but like I said below, that's his business.

                            However! Even if his intent wasn't to intimidate, only an idiot wouldn't foresee that as a likelihood. If you bring an armed assault rifle, whether you mean to be threatening or not, that's how you're going to come off. So unless this guy is an absolute moron, I think we can all agree that he had to have known how people would read his actions. He had to have known that people would see it as a sign of intimidation.

                            And at that point, is there really a notable difference between meaning to or not? Either way you know you're going to intimidate, and then you go ahead and do it. I would argue that knowingly intimidating people is wrong either way you slice it.

                            • 2 votes
                            #7.19 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:18 AM EDT
                            Adam Kemp

                            That's the whole point, though. It is inconceivable that he did not know that his visible possession of an assault rifle would not intimidate people, and so by bringing one anyway the only logical explanation is that he meant to intimidate people. Anyone who says otherwise is being dishonest. You do not bring an assault rifle to a debate for any other reason. The intent was obvious, and it was despicable.

                            • 2 votes
                            #7.20 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:27 AM EDT
                            alkimija

                            *sighs*

                            Just like I said elsewhere, the purpose of a firearm - outside of hunting and the range - is always for intimidation. The presence of a firearm readily visible on your person tells other people that you are armed with a formidable, deadly weapon, and that you are prepared to use it.

                            If firearms weren't intimidating, then they wouldn't deter criminals from attacking people openly carrying firearms. Don't hear about many instances of that happening. That's why it's great for law-abiding citizens to be able to openly carry firearms: rapists and murderers don't like easy prey in general.

                            However (like I wrote elsewhere), there's an appropriate time and place for every behaviour. What's great in one situation is inappropriate in another. While it is a good decision in general to openly carry a firearm in a city or neighbourhood known for a high rate of crime, it is a bad decision (very, very bad) to take a firearm to a political venue, especially one which is hosting the President.

                            There isn't all that fine a line drawn between common sense and crazy. If it existed in the material world, it would be a dang big line, about a football field in width, fluorescent orange in colour, and covered with razor wire. Unless you didn't have any common sense in the first place, you'd have to make a pretty conscious decision to abandon all common sense in order to cross over to crazy.

                            And that's just what these idiots essentially did.

                            • 4 votes
                            #7.21 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:31 AM EDT
                            AngryWhiteMan63

                            You do not come to a debate armed with an assault rifle unless it is to intimidate your opponents.

                            You didn't answer my question Adam. At which rally was the Freedom of Speech more protected? This one? Or the one where a man was assaulted by the Union?

                            • 4 votes
                            #7.22 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:06 AM EDT
                            Adam Kemp

                            At which rally was the Freedom of Speech more protected? This one? Or the one where a man was assaulted by the Union?

                            First, no one was assaulted by "the union". When the goal of the right wing protesters is to stir up anger and stifle debate you end up with (surprise!) angry people. Tempers flared and violence occurred. The blame should go to those whose entire goal was to rile people up rather than actually discuss the issues. People like this want violence to occur because they want the focus to be "I was assaulted" rather than "I had nothing to contribute to these debates". The last thing they want is for the media to point out that their opposition is actually presenting an argument for their proposal while the right wing is just making noise.

                            This goes hand in hand with the other incident in which a gun was brought to the debate. In both cases free speech was exactly what the right wingers were trying to stop. They succeeded in both cases, as they have in most of these "town hall" meetings. They are stopping the debate all over the country through whatever means necessary.

                            Shouting down your opponents to end a debater is not promoting free speech. Bringing a gun to the debate in order to intimidate your opponents is not promoting free speech. Both of those are actually actions opposed to free speech. So in neither case was free speech protected, and in both cases it was the fault of those whose entire goal was to stop the debate from happening.

                            • 5 votes
                            #7.23 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:57 AM EDT
                            AngryWhiteMan63

                            First, no one was assaulted by "the union".

                            I stopped reading after this. You're obviously not up on current events and have ignored much my and Jack Death's debate. Get educated on the St. Louis Town Hall meeting, the man assaulted for passing out flags, and try again.

                            • 4 votes
                            #7.24 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:04 AM EDT
                            Lonnie-1003775

                            can't we kiss and make up? I'm sure the politicians would love for ya'll to do that. . . . while your kissing. . . they will be stealing your wallets . . .

                            • 2 votes
                            #7.25 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:51 PM EDT
                            AZPADDY

                            The heading of this article would be more accurate if it read: "Unstable man shows up at presidential event armed, and conservative gun nuts wet their pants in envy, plan more armed protests as result."

                            • 2 votes
                            #7.26 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:34 AM EDT
                            Reply
                            Luther28

                            I am not a Leftist, I actually lean a little to the right from center, having said that I find this person to be King of the Idiots, no make that emperor. My question would be what was his point other than to display his fool hardiness on a National level. Before this brings out the NRA touters, yes I own guns.

                            • 7 votes
                            Reply#8 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:05 PM EDT
                            Adam Kemp

                            Your article is notable in what it is lacking: an argument for the appropriateness carrying an assault rifle to a town hall meeting, which is meant for open debate. How can anyone have a meaningful discussion when one side is holding a weapon in plain sight?

                            Admit it: this was an attempt at intimidation. It was a thinly-veiled threat. Had the man behind the podium been carrying a weapon do you think people would be so eager to shout at him? If the congressman came with armed guards holding assault rifles in the background would there be any debate? Everyone would recognize that as the act of a totalitarian government, and yet when the opposition (your side) brings guns to the debate you think it's a wonderful display of freedom. No, it's not. It's an attempt at stifling real debate, and there's nothing more to it.

                            • 12 votes
                            #9 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:06 PM EDT
                            USA 1-1003451

                            I keep seeing reference to "assault rifle" Were these real "assault rifles" or semi automatic rifles that are often confused and mislabeled by the press and anti-gunners as being "assault rifles."

                            I could lay a military M4 and a M15 semi-auto side by side. Many people would claim they see 2 assault rifles when only one is actually an "assault rifle". The other is just a rifle.

                            The word "assault rifle" is often thrown around and used to promote fear of people having machine guns.

                            • 4 votes
                            #9.1 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:53 AM EDT
                            AngryWhiteMan63

                            USA, you will note that in my article I refered to it as a rifle.

                            • 4 votes
                            #9.2 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:07 AM EDT
                            Adam Kemp

                            Fair enough, USA. Replace every use of the word "assault rifle" in all of my comments with "rifle" and nothing changes. My argument is the same, and nothing I said is invalidated. I will try to be more careful in the future, but this is a minor point that is only an attempt at distracting people from the real argument: you don't carry a rifle (or any weapon) to a debate unless it is to intimidate your opponent.

                            • 2 votes
                            #9.3 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:03 AM EDT
                            USA 1-1003451

                            USA, you will note that in my article I refered to it as a rifle.

                            Yes, I noticed in the article they are called rifles. I just wanted it clear in the discussion since I was seeing "assault rifle" used by more than one person.

                            Adam, I just ended up posting behind your comment. I know others were throwing the term around as well. I wasn't singling you out.

                            • 3 votes
                            #9.4 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:42 PM EDT
                            AZPADDY

                            I'm impressed by the knowledge you display of firearms, but really....who cares?

                            Why is it that gun "enthusiasts" feel the need to point out that a rifle may or may not be an "assault" rifle? Are any rifles referred to as "defense rifles"?

                            In my opinion, all firearms qualify as assault weapons as they are made for one purpose, and one purpose only. Currently I see firearms being used to inflate some people's own self image, like the nut in Phx. with the rifle and pistol. That is irresponsible handling of firearms.

                              #9.5 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:51 PM EDT
                              Scott Isaacs

                              In reality, it makes a material difference of whether it is an assault rifle or not usually... but in this discussion it is a distinction without meaning because he took a military-grade semi-auto rifle to a political rally. For the purposes of this discussion, an unconcealed gun is a gun is a gun.

                              • 1 vote
                              #9.6 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:52 PM EDT
                              KGMO

                              he took a military-grade semi-auto rifle to a political rally.

                              It was a staged stunt by a right wing fringe group trying to get a little free press.

                              • 2 votes
                              #9.7 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:05 PM EDT
                              Scott Isaacs

                              KGMO:

                              Those aren't mutually exclusive propositions... he did what I said to accomplish what you said.

                              • 1 vote
                              #9.8 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:46 AM EDT
                              KGMO

                              He wasn't just out taking a walk with his AR 15. He wasn't there to find out more info about healthcare reform, and the groups this guy associates with are domestic terrorists.

                              • 2 votes
                              #9.9 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:06 AM EDT
                              Scott Isaacs

                              Are we not on the same page here? I think that what he did is one of the most serious offenses one can commit short of violence. It's akin to treason because one that does that is actively harming the country by impairing political debate through intimidation. I think, as AWM already stated, that this guy showed up for some kind of gun protest without regard for the unintended but very real negative consequences that have caused major blowback onto the entire pro-gun movement. It's even caused some fissures in the pro-gun group because a number (we're in the minority but we're a sizeable minority) of people I know that own guns are very wound up that this guy thought he could get away with toting a rifle in plain sight to a political rally because it makes them think of the kind of behavior we're fighting against in Islamic countries. This is the kind of bush league politics you see in Iraq where guys show up with guns and they influence the debate. I don't think "Chris," whoever he is, has any clue what kind of problems he has started for the causes he claims to support. As a concealed carry permit holder, I think this guy is an idiot because he's given anti-gun activists an incident to beat us over the head with when they're talking to moderates that think only extremists take guns to political rallies and then conflate people like me (who have the good sense to leave my gun home when I go campaigning) with people like this dumbass and then start thinking it would be a good idea to take both of our guns away.

                              • 1 vote
                              #9.10 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:33 AM EDT
                              KGMO

                              Are we not on the same page here?

                              You know what? We are more than you might think. I don't own a gun but I support gun ownership. I'm glad that some of the folks who speak loudly about their right to own a gun are speaking up to denounce this kind of nonsense.

                              It appears I mistook your post for one of those who are making the argument that they have the right to swing their fist and it's my fault if my face gets in the way.

                              I don't hate guns or hate people that love guns. I like guns and I get tired of people calling liberals pussies because we hate guns.

                              • 2 votes
                              #9.11 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:54 AM EDT
                              AZPADDY

                              Far too often, the conversation on newsvine is hijacked by people that not only "love" guns, but seem to have an unhealthy obsession with all things firearms related. In this instance we have an obviously ubalanced person bringing not one, but two firearms to a presidential event. This is the natural result when you have very well funded corporate backed opposition to a president that threatens profits, and anti-government paranoid second amendment extremists. The inevitable mix is a very dangerous volitile element that is just waiting for a spark, and the media is nearby, playing with matches.

                              Both groups have the effect of escalating the other's rhetoric in a tandem that has become one extreme threatening group, with the aim of toppling our duly elected government. In another era, say....1945, this group would have had the crap kicked out of them by an America that just beat the crap out of their role models - facism and totalitarianism.

                              We need to adopt the patriotic stance of then, and show these idiots the door.

                              • 1 vote
                              #9.12 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:15 AM EDT
                              Adam Kemp

                              Which event are you talking about? I don't think the one mentioned in the article was a "presidential evident". I'm pretty sure it was not one of the town halls where Obama showed up. It was just one of the many other town hall events.

                              • 1 vote
                              #9.13 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:10 PM EDT
                              AZPADDY

                              I live in Phx., AZ., and trust me, the event this article is based on was indeed a presidential one. The gun nut that denies he's a conservative is a member of a conservative militia type group that blathers on and on about their freedoms being attacked from an imaginary government. The author may have left out the fact that it was a presidential address to the VFW in Phx., AZ., and the gunnut was outside of the hall it was held in. Now....why would he leave THAT out??

                              What event did you think it was?

                                #9.14 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:50 PM EDT
                                JACK DEATH

                                AZPaddy,

                                You're in PHZ, AZ and I am in STL, MO and AWG is in MT somewhere and calling the shots like Cronkite did for football game with the phone lines down. The only thing Cronkite got right was the winning team's name.

                                • 1 vote
                                #9.15 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 4:02 PM EDT
                                Scott Isaacs

                                KGMO:

                                I'm a conservative Democrat. I'm pretty liberal on cultural issues but I'm moderate to right about guns. I think that every American starts off with the right to own a gun and carry it, concealed, for their protection. However, I also believe that one forfeits that right when they are convicted of a felony or a violence-related misdemeanor since they have illustrated that they have, at the very least, questionable impulse control. As a group, these are people we don't want to be legally sending out into our communities with a firearm because it's too easy to envision them losing control of their impulses, again, deciding that the right method of action is to harm someone and then having them draw their gun, start shooting people and be equally armed as the police when they arrive. People with a track record of viewing violence as an acceptable form of conflict resolution are not acceptable candidates to be legally endowed with lethal force by society. Second, I believe that if a citizen is going to exercise their right to carry a gun for self-defense that the government, in addition to subjecting them to a background check for the first issue I outlined, should also deny CCPs (Concealed Carry Permits) to anyone convicted of weapons violations in the past. Another requirement should be IMHO that private entities not be allowed to give the classroom instruction and gun range training that qualifies one for a CCP. Only law enforcement agencies should be allowed to give the qualification coursework and range time. Given my experience receiving my training from the Hamilton Police Department, the law enforcement agencies know from the inside-out the best methods to teach to potential CCP holders, especially if CCP holders are to be considered the first line of defense for a community from a threat and are depended upon to manage outcomes towards a lawful ending until law enforcement arrives and can effect an end to the incident.

                                I think that many times gun owners or pro-gun people agitate for gun owners to maintain the rights they have and expand on them while conveniently ignoring the heavy responsibilities that gun owners are taking on by possessing a gun. AWM was in the military and I was raised in a family of veterans (though I couldn't go myself) and I think that other gun owners should know our responsibilities and take them as seriously as he and I do. If one is going to own a gun, they need to abide by rules that sound simple but following them faithfully is, literally, a life or death matter. Rule 1 first and foremost is that you never aim your gun at someone that you do not intend to kill. This can have two catastrophic consequences if you are not following it. The first is that aiming at someone before you've identified them as a threat requiring lethal force can end in an innocent person being killed because of the handler's negligence. The second is that if you have made the decision that you need to employ lethal force to protect yourself or others and you bring that gun into play without being ready to pull the trigger and take a life, odds are you will be handing this dangerous threat your weapon to be used at their disgression on you and anyone you were trying to protect. Second is that if you are carrying a gun, open or concealed, it is your #1 responsibility to make sure that it never leaves your possession. If your weapon is taken from you and ends up shooting and/or killing someone by the hand of another (because some kid thought it was a toy or because an assailant caught you unaware and managed to arm himself because you weren't prepared and vigilant) that injury or death is first and foremost on your head because your negligence armed the perpetrator. Third, it is your responsibility to keep that gun out of the hands of anyone that might use it irresponsibly or illegally and that means taking all necessary precautions including a lockbox, safe, trigger lock, etc. Assess who could gain access to the gun and employ that level of security because it's not trivial, especially when someone dies. We had a man in Hamilton recently that didn't trigger lock his gun even though he thought he successfully hid it from his five year old son. The boy found it, accidentally shot himself in the chest and died. The father was charged but that's really a pittance compared to the intense grief that he is sure to live with every day for the rest of his life because one seemingly unimportant irresponsible act on his part led to his son's death. The third rule is the one that I most often see broken, much to my chagrin, because the most innocent people are injured and killed because the third rule is ignored and they are totally preventable. Fourth, and something that is often overlooked, is that when you fire at an assailant you are responsible for where every round from your gun ends up. Killing an assailant means nothing if you maim or kill an innocent bystander. If a person doesn't feel comfortable with that responsibility, they should not carry a weapon nor agitate for people that don't understand those "rules of the road" as it were to be allowed IMHO."

                                • 3 votes
                                #9.16 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 4:47 PM EDT
                                Adam Kemp

                                I stand corrected. The fact that the President was there makes this an even worse offense.

                                • 2 votes
                                #9.17 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:56 PM EDT
                                AZPADDY

                                I'm still wondering how the author of this article ommitted the fact that the event was a presidential address to the annual VFW meeting.

                                Honest mistake? HHHmmmmm.....

                                • 1 vote
                                #9.18 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:03 PM EDT
                                AngryWhiteMan63

                                First, the folks with the guns didn't show up at the Presidents forum. They showed up at the protest held outside. Second, No one, certainly not me, has denied that they chose to show up with guns at an event that included protesting near the President. While it may not have been in my article explicitly, the article was written long enough afterwards that the most casual observer should would understand the situation.

                                However, since you have brought it up, I shall endeavor in the future to spell things out more precisely, for those who may not be fully aware of current events, and those who like to nitpick.

                                • 2 votes
                                #9.19 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:12 PM EDT
                                AZPADDY

                                Oh! my mistake. I'm sure the gunnut just happened by while a Presidential event was being held, and just happened to run into a few dozen Friends, seeing how the protest outside had nothing to do with the "Presidents forum" that they "didn't show up at".

                                You have to admit that omitting the fact that it was a presidential event seems odd, as if these armed weirdos would have been there if president Obama wasn't there.

                                  #9.20 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:37 PM EDT
                                  AngryWhiteMan63Deleted
                                  Adam Kemp

                                  As someone who did not know that this was a Presidential event, I feel somewhat insulted by your last comment. You basically just implied that I was stupid for not knowing already. There have been many of these town hall meetings all over the country. I had no idea that this one in particular was held by Obama, and there's no reason I should be expected to know that. You wrote an article about about the event, and so it is your responsibility to explain the relevant details of the event while making your case.

                                  Leaving that piece of information out is a pretty glaring hole in the article. I'm not going to assume it was deliberate, but I will say that it should have been mentioned at some point. You made a mistake leaving it out.

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #9.22 - Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:09 AM EDT
                                  AZPADDY

                                  In my opinion, the omission was probably due to AWM's subconscious desire to deflect criticism away from a fellow gun rights advocate, no matter how wrong bringing two firearms to a presidential address is. When you consider the name "AngryWhiteMan", and the photo of presumably, an AngryWhiteMan taking careful aim with a rifle, the inference is clear: I'm angry, white, and armed. Watch out! Also, the title of this thread itself, is rather inflammatory, in that it takes a verbal swipe at "Liberals", and why, God only knows.

                                  You are absolutely correct, Adam, in thinking AWM left a glaring hole in the article. Am I being "nitpicky"? Not really. The armed gunnut said he was there armed, because he can, in response to the question of why he was armed at a presidential address of the VFW.

                                  Sorry if I come off a bit sarcastic AWM, but in my opinion, when you title an article in the manner you have, you can expect to be called on it. If you don't care for that, submit it to the N.R.A. instead. They like that sort of language.

                                    #9.23 - Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:06 AM EDT
                                    AngryWhiteMan63

                                    In my opinion, the omission was probably due to AWM's subconscious desire to deflect criticism away from a fellow gun rights advocate, no matter how wrong bringing two firearms to a presidential address is.

                                    Your opinion. Want to know mine? Here it is:

                                    I

                                    Dont

                                    Give

                                    One

                                    Rat

                                    @!$%#

                                    What

                                    You

                                    Think

                                    There, I typed slowly so you would be sure to understand.

                                    • 3 votes
                                    #9.24 - Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:56 AM EDT
                                    Blayde

                                    I think the people that bring guns to a Presidential event are secretly working against the the NRA, obviously they want to get all guns banned, the only other explanation is that they are stupid, who knows?

                                      #9.25 - Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:07 PM EDT
                                      Scott Isaacs

                                      Why don't we cut AWM some slack and split the difference? He puts it in the article and we're okay with it from here on.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #9.26 - Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:54 PM EDT
                                      AzzixDeleted
                                      AngryWhiteMan63

                                      Take a hike AZ.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #9.28 - Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:29 PM EDT
                                      AngryWhiteMan63

                                      Adam, since you feel offended by 9.21, which may be percieved to have a personal attack in it, I've deleted it.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #9.29 - Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:08 PM EDT
                                      AZPADDY

                                      AWM #9.24

                                      Thanks for typing slowly and vertically and adhering so closely to the C.o.H.

                                      Angry indeed.

                                      BTW, I'm devastated.

                                        #9.30 - Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:05 PM EDT
                                        AZPADDY

                                        Azzix

                                        I read the comment that was deleted and your point was well taken, obvious, and contained the same verbage as AWM's 9.24 comment.

                                        The deletion was totally uncalled for.

                                          #9.31 - Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:35 PM EDT
                                          Azzix

                                          I

                                          Dont

                                          Give

                                          One

                                          Rat

                                          @!$%#

                                          What

                                          You

                                          Think

                                          Then

                                          why

                                          the

                                          @!$%#

                                          are

                                          you

                                          here

                                          debating

                                          your

                                          opinion?

                                          • 2 votes
                                          #9.32 - Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:36 PM EDT
                                          AngryWhiteMan63

                                          Have a nice day AZ.

                                          • 2 votes
                                          #9.33 - Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:55 PM EDT
                                          Adam Kemp

                                          Adam, since you feel offended by 9.21, which may be percieved to have a personal attack in it, I've deleted it.

                                          Thank you.

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #9.34 - Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:55 PM EDT
                                          Reply
                                          maw

                                          I'm a gun rights advocate myself, and own several firearms. But this was clearly an act of intimidation hidden behind the second amendment. Is this all the extreme right has left (no pun intended), stupid intimidation tactics?

                                          It makes responsible gun owners like myself look like a bunch of lunatics.

                                          • 11 votes
                                          Reply#10 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:29 PM EDT
                                          AngryWhiteMan63

                                          To be perfectly honest, I expect to see some kind of bill introduced very soon to ban Firearms from protests, within so many feet of protests, within so many feet of a political gatherings, etc.

                                          • 9 votes
                                          #10.1 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:02 PM EDT
                                          nyghtshayde

                                          To be perfectly honest, I expect to see some kind of bill introduced very soon to ban Firearms from protests, within so many feet of protests, within so many feet of a political gatherings, etc

                                          You are exactly right.Because of their need to express themselves I also see legislation coming soon with more support than it had a few days ago.I would bet the people in charge of the NRA are shaking their heads at the amount of damage done to their cause.This does nothing to further the right to bear arms.

                                          • 12 votes
                                          #10.2 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:25 PM EDT
                                          Waynester

                                          To be perfectly honest, I expect to see some kind of bill introduced very soon to ban Firearms from protests,

                                          Our firearms law in Georgia prohibits possession or even bringing a firearm to any public gathering. It means you could conceivably be breaking the law by "bringing" a firearm in your car, say, to a Braves game. It's really vague and silly and we are working to get it changed.

                                          • 5 votes
                                          #10.3 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:24 PM EDT
                                          Reply
                                          greg-709692

                                          Gotta Love Arizona. A dozen or so people show up with firearms and no one runs away. The Law is the Law in that state, and apparently, everybody forced to stay outside the meeting new it.

                                          Didn't see anybody running away!

                                          Just follow any law on the books and if it upsets the Left, your immoral.

                                          • 8 votes
                                          Reply#11 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:06 PM EDT
                                          JACK DEATH

                                          You can open carry in Oregon just like AZ no big deal but there is a time and place but, not at a Presidential gathering seems to be just screwed up thinking. Of course this kind of action is what gets firearms banned.

                                          • 5 votes
                                          #11.1 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:12 PM EDT
                                          greg-709692

                                          Of course this kind of action is what gets firearms banned.

                                          I don't think so.

                                          How many decades have the Liberals tried to get that to happen?

                                          seems to be just screwed up thinking

                                          Screwed up thinking begets screwed up thinking if that's the case. This Non-Bill is screwed up and twisting people in knots. Itsa even tying the administration up in knots as they can't even get their own people on the same page when they speak. When one of their own comes out and says one thing and someone else in their own party has to come out to say they didn't mean it and says this is what they really meant, its screwed up!

                                          • 4 votes
                                          #11.2 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:18 PM EDT
                                          JACK DEATH

                                          One event that goes really wrong will bring laws you will not want to see and it has been done before and overturned yes but, they can be brought back again and maybe stronger who knows.

                                          • 3 votes
                                          #11.3 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:22 PM EDT
                                          greg-709692

                                          That's a possibility, but at least it can be rescinded. You have to live with the law for at least 4 years. This was a law on the Arizona books, so, they did nothing wrong.

                                          That's the political way.

                                          • 5 votes
                                          #11.4 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:59 PM EDT
                                          AZPADDY

                                          It's just a matter of time till a gun nut - say a Timothy McVey - decides he just wants to teach those damn liberals a lesson and opens up with his "assualt" rifle and kills as many people as he can. McVey wasn't on medication, or escaped from custody. He was pretty much similar to many here when it comes to hatred of the government and "Liberals".

                                          It's not a matter of IF, but when.

                                          Too bad.

                                            #11.5 - Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:03 PM EDT
                                            Reply
                                            margoharris

                                            Wet our pants??!! Hell no! Lock and load, baby.

                                            • 5 votes
                                            Reply#12 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:13 PM EDT
                                            AngryWhiteMan63

                                            I have updated the article with a couple of points that I think should be made. They do not conflict with any of the statements I have made in my comments, but do clarify a few points that some of you may not have understood from the article.

                                            • 4 votes
                                            Reply#13 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:37 PM EDT
                                            bigbugy

                                            You stated in one of your comments above that you are a vet,yet you carry yourself without the discipline of the service,nor have you been a gentlemen.

                                            Toting a gun makes not a man.Too many jerks running around pretending to be men because they have a gun.No clue as to what it takes to be a real man when it comes to honor and dignity.

                                            And to take weapons to a town hall meeting on health care is assinine at best.

                                            • 7 votes
                                            #13.1 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:08 PM EDT
                                            AngryWhiteMan63

                                            yet you carry yourself without the discipline of the service,nor have you been a gentlemen.

                                            And you base this on what? Just curious. You're entitled to your opinion.

                                            • 5 votes
                                            #13.2 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:42 PM EDT
                                            Juno Hera

                                            "A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." --Thomas Jefferson to his nephew Peter Carr, 1785.

                                            "The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed." --Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824.

                                            "One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them." --Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1796.

                                            • 5 votes
                                            #13.3 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:27 PM EDT
                                            jaywow67

                                            Actually I think AWM has done a very good job of keeping his comments pretty neutral.

                                            • 2 votes
                                            #13.4 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:19 PM EDT
                                            AngryWhiteMan63

                                            Thanks Jay. And thanks for stopping by.

                                            • 4 votes
                                            #13.5 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:22 PM EDT
                                            bigbugy

                                            Angry,

                                            I was actually referring to the term code pink pussies.The terms you use are meant to insult others to make your point.We know that tact is more useful than this to make a point.Because someone doesn't agree with your philosophy doesn't make them a pussy as you put it, just differing in opinion.

                                            And people will respect you and your opinion far more if you can respect them and their own opinions.

                                            If theres one thing I learned in the service it was to always respect anothers opinion and never allow anger to control me or what I say and do.These are valuble tools in debate.

                                            • 2 votes
                                            #13.6 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:18 PM EDT
                                            Waynester

                                            The terms you use are meant to insult others to make your point

                                            Insulting a group who were so low as to taunt injured warriors is entirely appropriate with or without service to any point.

                                            • 1 vote
                                            #13.7 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:25 PM EDT
                                            jaywow67

                                            I see no difference in what they are doing than when "you" claim you are the only Americans. I mean after all, plenty of "you" claim liberals don't own guns, wouldn't know how to use them and don't serve in the military. Same type of thing don't you think Way?

                                            • 1 vote
                                            #13.8 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:44 PM EDT
                                            AngryWhiteMan63

                                            Jay, you bring up a point that I learned last year. There are just as many gun owners that are liberals as conservatives. Gun ownership cannot be defined by party line. Likewise, gun control is not clearly party line. While gun control is predominantly a Liberal viewpoint, I have run into many conservatives who support gun control.

                                            As for Code Pink. I was raised a Southern Boy. I was taught from an early age to treat women with respect, Until such time as they prove they do not deserve respect. Code Pink has done that. I have a son who is a Marine. He has two tours to Iraq under his belt. Very little is mentioned about the Parents, wives, children, and other family members who wait at home when their loved ones are in harms way. I had plenty of sleepless nights when sketchy reports talked of IEDs killing Marines in the Anbar Province, and the North Babil Province. So I think I have earned the right to be righteously @!$%#ing pissed when I haven't heard from my son in over a week, and I read about Code Pink Pussies protesting outside the Marine Corp Recruiting Office in Berkley, when my son is over there.

                                            If you want to protest the war, fine. No problem. But don't sit in front of the very office of the Men and Women who have dedicated their lives to protect your right to protest, disrupt and disrespect them, and then expect me to show respect to you.

                                            They can all go to hell for all I care.

                                            And if that somehow gives someone a negative opinion of me, well, I don't give a @!$%#. Get over it.

                                            • 4 votes
                                            #13.9 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:12 PM EDT
                                            Waynester

                                            I mean after all, plenty of "you" claim liberals don't own guns, wouldn't know how to use them and don't serve in the military. Same type of thing don't you think Way?

                                            But I've never said any of those things. And none of those things is the same as taunting injured soldiers, sailors, airmen or Marines. Not even close.

                                            • 2 votes
                                            #13.10 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:51 AM EDT
                                            jaywow67

                                            Way you are so wrong. To me, anytime you besmirch an American it's wrong. And Way I've had people had "you" guys tell me that I'm not an American.

                                              #13.11 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:21 PM EDT
                                              Waynester

                                              I disagree. The Lyndon Larouche and KKK types certainly deserve besmirching as did the despicable Code Pink and Westboro Baptist types. You're asking for a judgment free world. It isn't possible, nor should it be. I'm pretty sure you've tried to besmirch me in the recent past.

                                              I don't know who "you" guys are. Do you often engage in unfair generalization or do you only apply it to those of us right of center types?

                                              • 2 votes
                                              #13.12 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:01 PM EDT
                                              jaywow67

                                              I use "you"guys to any group who set who has a group mind.

                                              Besmirch you, no call you out yes. How many times have you done like wise you really want to go into "mines bigger than yours"?

                                              Besmirch the nutcases, no you don't have that right. Call them out for being nutcases, disagree with them, giving them the bird sure, you bet. They are still Americans.

                                                #13.13 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:52 PM EDT
                                                Reply
                                                Canis Lupus

                                                Libs and leftists sure seem to have short memories. I remember the late, radical leftist America-hater Abbie Hoffman saying, "Yes, we support free speech...as long as we're the ones doing the speaking."

                                                So, to fast forward 45 years, one could easily surmise this left wing mantra: "Yes, we support the right to protest and make our voices heard...as long as it's us doing the protesting".

                                                Examples:

                                                Media Barely Noticed Legal Gun-brandishing by Leftist Black Panthers in 2000 protest.

                                                and...

                                                In the late 1960s and early 1970s, anti-war protesters in turn shut down recruiting and induction centers, destroyed draft board records, tried to close down Washington, DC, got arrested in the hundreds, incited soldiers to desert and then helped hide them from the law, exposed the 1968 Democratic Convention as a farce, and faced down armed police and soldiers repeatedly, at one point in 1970 closing down the nation's campuses in a national student strike when soldiers shot and killed four unarmed students at Kent State University.

                                                Years earlier, when workers were being abused, they occupied factories, forcibly shutting them down with sit-down strikes, battled Pinkerton detectives and armed National Guard forces, and set up tent cities in Washington to make themselves heard.

                                                • 8 votes
                                                Reply#14 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:34 PM EDT
                                                jaywow67

                                                lupis

                                                I'm very glad you equate these present hard line evil gun totters with the hard line evilo gun totters of the past. Works for me.

                                                  #14.1 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:21 PM EDT
                                                  Reply
                                                  Steve Watts

                                                  But the libs and progs are still upset. They would argue that this display is a form of intimidation. That he used poor judgment.

                                                  Whether he meant it as a form of intimidation is really something only he knows. But, having "a right" is not the same thing as "being right." I wouldn't argue that he was intimidating or outside his rights, but I would say he exercised poor judgment.

                                                  Elected officials have a nasty history with assassination attempts. Note here that I am not, in any way, insinuating that this man or others carrying firearms intend to harm any elected officials. However, if someone does wish to harm an elected official, people carrying firearms there are making it almost too easy for them. At risk of sounding gloom and doom, imagine an elected official is shot and killed at one of these town hall meetings.

                                                  Instead of one suspect, you have a few dozen. Instead of one possible murder weapon, you have several dozen. Instead of an open and shut case with a simple outcome, the murderer could slip through the cracks. And instead of discouraging the kind of whackos who would wish harm on an elected official, you're gift-wrapping the perfect crime for them. And what's the excellent reason behind it?

                                                  "Because I can."

                                                  It's poor judgement. He's within his rights, but that doesn't make it right.

                                                  • 6 votes
                                                  Reply#15 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:02 PM EDT
                                                  AngryWhiteMan63

                                                  Good comments Steve. It's interesting to note that the Secret Service has gone on record to say they were not concerned with this issue at the time. Had anyone who was armed attempted to get closer to the meeting, they would have been stopped. Also, the Sheriff has stated that these folks were under constant surveillance. Of course, that does not alleviate these folks from exercising good judgement.

                                                  • 5 votes
                                                  #15.1 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:08 PM EDT
                                                  nyghtshayde

                                                  Angry-I honestly think they may have hurt the gun cause.The politicians getting nervous is all it will take.

                                                  • 5 votes
                                                  #15.2 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:38 PM EDT
                                                  AngryWhiteMan63

                                                  Sadly nyghtshayde, I fear you may be right. As I said, I expect new legislation to be introduced soon.

                                                  • 4 votes
                                                  #15.3 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:25 PM EDT
                                                  Reply
                                                  Juno Hera

                                                  In this day and age I can see why so many are "afraid" when seeing this type of display. Especially since there has been an effort to establish gun owners as villains.

                                                  • 5 votes
                                                  Reply#16 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:44 PM EDT
                                                  AngryWhiteMan63

                                                  Good point Juno. Gun ownership does tend to place people in a villainous category to some.

                                                  • 5 votes
                                                  #16.1 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:27 PM EDT
                                                  jaywow67

                                                  I think it also places a great deal of responsibility on those that own them.

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  #16.2 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:23 PM EDT
                                                  Juno Hera

                                                  . . . and considering just how many people do own them, I think one must say, most do take their responsibility seriously.

                                                  • 4 votes
                                                  #16.3 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:46 PM EDT
                                                  JACK DEATH

                                                  most do take their responsibility seriously.

                                                  About as good as birth control.

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  #16.4 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:50 PM EDT
                                                  AngryWhiteMan63

                                                  I think it also places a great deal of responsibility on those that own them.

                                                  Agreed. I have always advocated responsible gun ownership. That's why I tend to agree these guys may have excercised their right, but maybe not good judgement.

                                                  • 6 votes
                                                  #16.5 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:57 PM EDT
                                                  AZPADDY

                                                  The nut in question would be viewed as a nut if he had gone to the local mall armed as he was. Too bad the "liberal' press didn't ask if had gone shopping with his AR15 over his shoulder. After all, he claimed he did it "because I can".

                                                  His intent was to intimidate the president of the United States. I really wish someone had just bitch slapped him for that stupid stunt.

                                                    #16.6 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:26 AM EDT
                                                    Reply
                                                    mgbirish

                                                    I am as liberal as one can get, I have had a CCW permit for twenty years. I believe in and support the second amendment. However, come on people, the last place I would carry is anywhere the President is going to be. These people are idiots! Like many have said earlier, this will harm the second amendment. They are not smarter than a average fifth grader!

                                                    • 6 votes
                                                    Reply#17 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:08 PM EDT
                                                    Agent 57

                                                    IMHO some conservatives and NRA folk do this, trying to shock liberals, so they can flaunt the law in the face of lefties, the problem is many on the left believe in the second amendment and the States rights to make laws with consideration to the second amendment.

                                                    As a democrat I've no issue with folk toting guns, I prefer, those who would, be aware and cognizant of the circumstances and not tote in public just to prove a political point, it demeans the privilege....

                                                    • 2 votes
                                                    Reply#18 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:09 PM EDT
                                                    AngryWhiteMan63

                                                    Good comment Agent.

                                                    • 2 votes
                                                    #18.1 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:17 PM EDT
                                                    Reply
                                                    agm65ccip

                                                    I'll just repeat what I said in another related thread:

                                                    TheEarthIsNotMyMother

                                                    why should they? "right to bear arms" means "the right to carry them"

                                                    Yes it does BUT I am with John on this one. They completely have the right to carry their guns around per Arizona law, but I don't see what they were attempting to accomplish. All they have done is upset the Obama-worshippers and the people that know absolutely nothing about guns that get scared when they hear "assault rifle".

                                                    The pro-gun cause is doing pretty good right now, there are no serious legislative threats, and court cases challenging city handgun bans are moving right along. Now is the time responsible gun owners need to go to the range and have a good time, and more importantly not do anything stupid to hurt the cause.

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    Reply#19 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:11 PM EDT
                                                    Agent 57

                                                    All they have done is upset the Obama-worshippers and the people that know absolutely nothing about guns that get scared when they hear "assault rifle".

                                                    you could have left that out completely and had an excellent unbiased view but you just couldn't.

                                                    to bad they are demeaning what is a privilege by flaunting their right in all of Americas face... for political gain,,,

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    #19.1 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:19 PM EDT
                                                    AngryWhiteMan63

                                                    Also a good comment. Tomorrow, after work, I intend to visit the range on my way home and verify the zero on my Mini-14. We're starting to get ammo in the stores here again, and I'll be sending some of it down range.

                                                    • 3 votes
                                                    #19.2 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:20 PM EDT
                                                    jaywow67

                                                    You could bring it in my back yard. I've got a 300 yd range with 50 yd elec cable target set up.

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    #19.3 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:26 PM EDT
                                                    Evil 1

                                                    jaywow:

                                                    I want to come and play in your backyard. Can I bring my Barrett 82A1? We may have to really look for ammo as I haven't been able to find much over the past 6 months so I have a fellow shooter re-loading for me.

                                                    • 2 votes
                                                    #19.4 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:44 AM EDT
                                                    jaywow67

                                                    Naw them barrets are too damm loud, even with a suppressor. Not like on TV. Hahaha.

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    #19.5 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:50 PM EDT
                                                    Evil 1

                                                    jaywow:

                                                    You got that right, and I don't have a suppressor as I would have to have a tax stamp to own one. And a suppressor is not a necessity for sport shooting, just for other things that I have no intention of being involved with. I just got back from my shooting club and shot 4 rounds of sporting clays, had a great time and didn't hurt anyone! Will do it again tomorrow. Have a good one jaywow and keep banging them for fun!! Also, I think we may have found some common ground even though we disagree on many things from time to time, so it shows there is still hope for all of us. LOL, have a good one.

                                                      #19.6 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:53 PM EDT
                                                      JACK DEATH

                                                      Evil 1,

                                                      The tax stamp is from the ATF right? Face value $200.00 correct.

                                                        #19.7 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:01 PM EDT
                                                        jaywow67

                                                        You too Evil.

                                                        Peace

                                                          #19.8 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:13 PM EDT
                                                          Evil 1

                                                          JACKDEATH:

                                                          As I stated in my post I do not have a suppressor so I do not have nor do I need a tax stamp. But from my understanding the stamps are issued by the ATF after and extensive background check (the same for private ownership of a fully automatic weapon) and passage of that check. You then must register with the ATF and the FBI and the stamp must be with the weapon at all times and the individual who was issued the stamp is the only one who may posses it and the suppressor or weapon. As for the cost, and I haven't researched it, I thought it was $500.00. I may be wrong on this figure or it could be different amounts for suppressors and fully automatic weapons. I'll check with some of my friends in the Marshall's and see if I can get the facts.

                                                            #19.9 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:06 AM EDT
                                                            JACK DEATH

                                                            Thats OK I collect Federal Revenue stamps and there are only two left today.

                                                            The $200 face automatic firearms transfer if it has not changed and Federal Duck Hunting yearly $15

                                                            • 2 votes
                                                            #19.10 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:11 AM EDT
                                                            Evil 1

                                                            JACKDEATH:

                                                            You were correct the fee for the Tax Stamp is $200.00 for any Title II weapons and suppressors fall under this category. It is fully explained in the National Firearms Act and all weapons falling under this category are listed.

                                                            • 2 votes
                                                            #19.11 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:29 AM EDT
                                                            Reply
                                                            thelopes

                                                            Along with the threat of a loss in 2010, and 2012, the people are sending another message as well. And that message is, "Read the Second Amendment again. Understand it. Because we do."

                                                            There's something about this bit. It says something... wrong to me.

                                                            I completely understand the stance that "The masses aren't going to take it." and "You're going to lose in 2010/2012" etc. I see that, I can empathize with that and understand that.

                                                            But then you tack on the other bit. You've said in the item that it is about standing up to an oppressive government, but if you put it right after a statement of the threat of a loss by peaceful, electoral means, it carries the idea with it that if the first threat doesn't carry through, the second will. Even if the masses don't speak, if the elections aren't threatened, you want the threat of guns to continue.

                                                            It is here that the second threat becomes something that hurts the idea of the electoral process. It becomes less of 'do what we want or we won't reelect you' and becomes 'do what we want or we'll shoot you.' It isn't even a 'We'll defend ourselves' - it becomes thuggish.

                                                            • 3 votes
                                                            Reply#20 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:56 PM EDT
                                                            AngryWhiteMan63

                                                            Thelopes, that's why I updated the article. After rereading it, and after some discussions among friends, I felt that that may be misinterpreted. The point I was making, is that of someone saying "Hey, we know our rights. You call us evil mongers when we protest, but that's our right. Just like it's our right to bear arms". Thus, a political statement.

                                                            And my point with the article is to bring attention to the fact that many liberals and progressives completely miss the point of it being this man's right, that he is breaking no laws, and to immediately attack him for poor judgement (I would agree) and for intimidation (I disagree).

                                                            Ask yourself this: What would my response be if the protesters had:

                                                            • Burned an American Flag
                                                            • Burned a poster of Obama
                                                            • Burned a poster of the AZ Sen/Reps
                                                            • Burned an effigy of Obama
                                                            • Burned an effigy of Nancy Pelosi

                                                            Each and every one of these examples is a form of free speech. An exercise of a Constitutional right. But would each one of them have been viewed as such? Bearing arms is an exercise of a Constitutional right. But as we can see, notwithstanding the judgement issue, it's not being accepted as such.

                                                            • 3 votes
                                                            #20.1 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:20 PM EDT
                                                            thelopes

                                                            The point I was making, is that of someone saying "Hey, we know our rights. You call us evil mongers when we protest, but that's our right. Just like it's our right to bear arms". Thus, a political statement.

                                                            To be honest, that seems very much like an extreme oversimplification that completely ignores that you yourself see a judgment issue as well as the connection you yourself made with the idea of the 2nd amendment as a 'means to correct' a situation and the lines you used that the protesters wanted their representatives to "Reread the second amendment" in regards to a debate that has nothing to do with the right to bear arms..

                                                            Bearing arms is an exercise of a Constitutional right. But as we can see, notwithstanding the judgement issue, it's not being accepted as such.

                                                            I've got two questions, although maybe they're just different parts of the same topic.
                                                            Regarding "it's not being accepted as such" - where it is not being accepted as his constitutional right to do so?
                                                            And secondly, should all actions, if they are within the definitions of 'constitutional rights,' be above criticism or question?

                                                            • 1 vote
                                                            #20.2 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:06 AM EDT
                                                            AngryWhiteMan63

                                                            First, watch the video linked in #26. At about 6:43, they allude to this as a warning to an oppressive government, that at some point there will be resistance.

                                                            where it is not being accepted as his constitutional right to do so?

                                                            Contrary to what many liberals on the Vine may think, my statement that "the Liberals wet themselves" does not necessarily mean just the liberals on the Vine. I write for a blog, and cross post (perfectly legal under the COH) there and here. The liberal media has had a field day with this. And very few have acknowledged, or have glazed over the fact that this is his right. And in looking back at many of the posts in this thread, while there has been much criticism about his actions, few have acknowledged his right.

                                                            should all actions, if they are within the definitions of 'constitutional rights,' be above criticism or question?

                                                            Look at my list, and tell me which of those you would criticize. Substitute Bush's name for Obama, and tell me if you feel the same for them.

                                                            • 2 votes
                                                            #20.3 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:20 AM EDT
                                                            thelopes

                                                            And very few have acknowledged, or have glazed over the fact that this is his right.

                                                            Here's what makes me curious - Why must they 'mention' that he was 'within his rights'?

                                                            See, I would think the statement you put forth - that it 'hasn't been accepted as his constitutional right' - would imply that his right to do so were being 'challenged.' Not addressing the constitutionality of the issue would seem to... be absent of acceptance or rejection of the constitutionality.

                                                            If it isn't an issue, why bring it up?

                                                            Needing it be addressed when it isn't being questioned would be like every news broadcast beginning, "Protestors, with their freedom of speech, said..." "Known professor Johnson, speaking with his first amendment rights, talked on the economy with..." "We, with out freedom of the press, delved into the matter and want to report..." "Local pastor lead his congregation, with their freedom of religious expression, in prayer last sunday before a softball match..."

                                                            Look at my list, and tell me which of those you would criticize. Substitute Bush's name for Obama, and tell me if you feel the same for them.

                                                            That's not really an answer to my question, is it? it is comparative meaninglessness to the discussion.

                                                            The constitutionality of his actions haven't been questioned. You personally question his judgment. What's wrong with other criticisms that have nothing to do with the constitutionality of the action being raised?

                                                            • 1 vote
                                                            #20.4 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:45 AM EDT
                                                            Adam Kemp

                                                            It doesn't matter what his right is. His goal was to stifle debate, and that's the story. I'm not calling for him to be arrested, but the story is that the right wing is trying to shut down the debate, and this guy took it to an even further extreme by trying to actually scare people away by bringing a rifle along. If you really don't see the problem with this or refuse to admit that there is a problem with it in a free society then there is something wrong with your idea of a free society.

                                                            • 3 votes
                                                            #20.5 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:07 AM EDT
                                                            AngryWhiteMan63

                                                            Again, you have not been keeping up with current events. Try watching the video linked in comment #26.

                                                            • 2 votes
                                                            #20.6 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:04 AM EDT
                                                            thelopes

                                                            Again, you have not been keeping up with current events. Try watching the video linked in comment #26.

                                                            Was this directed at me?

                                                            The video seems pretty much unrelated to anything I've said - if you have something to say from it, why not verbalize it yourself?

                                                              #20.7 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:38 PM EDT
                                                              AngryWhiteMan63

                                                              Sorry, it was directed at Adam.

                                                              • 2 votes
                                                              #20.8 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:46 PM EDT
                                                              Adam Kemp

                                                              I have, actually. Current events are that right wing lunatics are going to these town hall meetings and deliberately trying to make people angry to shut down the debate. The fact that violence broke out at some of them is not surprising when the entire goal is to upset people by yelling at them (and often insulting them). The right wingers are not the ones who should feel threatened. They're the ones doing the threatening, and they are the ones instigating violence. This is just one more example.

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              #20.9 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:21 PM EDT
                                                              AngryWhiteMan63

                                                              Current events are that right wing lunatics are going to these town hall meetings and deliberately trying to make people angry to shut down the debate.

                                                              And I disagree. Current events are that Americans are going to town hall meetings and voicing their displeasure with their elected officials. They are being loud to get the point across to the elitists in DC that this current legislation is unacceptable to them.

                                                              • 2 votes
                                                              #20.10 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:55 PM EDT
                                                              thelopes

                                                              They are being loud to get the point across to the elitists in DC that this current legislation is unacceptable to them.

                                                              I personally understand why someone might think that would work, but there are/have been a few town hall meetings, and there are 300 million people in the U.S. The people at the meetings have sometimes been elected by their entire state, and sometimes by their smaller districts, but it'd seem like someone would realize they need more than just be a handful of loud people to get the idea across that "the people" want something or another thing.

                                                              You can be loud and against someone in a campaign, and voice your opinion that one candidate is unacceptable to you, but if they win, they've won the majority of the votes in that election, and the loud dissenter's unacceptance isn't going to be heard regardless of how loud it was.

                                                              I am personally very surprised that I find myself needing to say that perhaps civil discussion, or a civil organization and appeal with alternatives and points might be a better way at convincing someone rather than a blowhorn.

                                                                #20.11 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:38 PM EDT
                                                                Adam Kemp

                                                                Current events are that Americans are going to town hall meetings and voicing their displeasure with their elected officials.

                                                                Shouting and insulting is not a valid way to "voice displeasure" at a town hall meeting where the whole point is to actually talk about the issues. Shouting is only necessary when you're not being listened to. These meetings are a way of saying "we're listening. come tell us what you think". Rather than just telling people what they think and talking about the issue, these people are choosing to do everything they can to make sure that no one else gets heard. At that point it becomes less about voicing an opinion and more about shoving it down people's throats.

                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                #20.12 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:33 PM EDT
                                                                Reply
                                                                fortysecondparallel

                                                                It's only a matter of time before someone is shot at a public event, purposefully or accidentally. After that open-carry and other firearms laws will be amended to prohibit weapons at public events where people are assembled. That would be sound regulation of firearms. But of course, conservatives wet themselves at the mere suggestion of sensible--and Constitutional--firearms regulation.

                                                                • 5 votes
                                                                Reply#21 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:26 PM EDT
                                                                AngryWhiteMan63

                                                                conservatives wet themselves

                                                                That's fair.

                                                                at the mere suggestion of sensible--and Constitutional--firearms regulation

                                                                That's not. At the risk of turning this into a Firearms regulation thread, other than what you spelled out above, what other regulations would you be refering to?

                                                                Incidentally, I've said I think this may lead to legislation similar to what you have described. No one has asked me what my opinion would be about that.

                                                                • 4 votes
                                                                #21.1 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:47 PM EDT
                                                                sacheson

                                                                What would your opinion be about that type of legislation?

                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                #21.2 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:28 AM EDT
                                                                AngryWhiteMan63

                                                                Well, I'm glad you asked , sacheson. I actually would have no problem with it for two reason:

                                                                First, it would not impede my ability to purchase or own a weapon.

                                                                Second, we already have restrictions on where we can take guns, such as bars, courthouses, schools, etc. And private businesses are free to restrict guns on their premises as well. So limiting a distance to a protest, or political rally wouldn't really bother me.

                                                                But here's the problem. There is no such thing as a sensible bill in Congress. A bill to limit weapons at protests or rallies would most assuredly include some dumbass regulation about party registration when buying a gun, or declaring gun ownership when attending a rally, or something just as absurd.

                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                #21.3 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:51 AM EDT
                                                                Reply
                                                                JACK DEATH

                                                                But of course, conservatives wet themselves at the mere suggestion of sensible--and Constitutional--firearms regulation.

                                                                Reagan sure as hell did.

                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                Reply#22 - Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:39 PM EDT
                                                                mountainmike-1199289

                                                                Showing up at a town hall meeting with a loaded weapon is not the way to create an open discussion. It is an effort to intimidate in the same manner as trying to shout down others when it is their turn to talk on the topic, burning effigies, spray painting swastikas, giving legislators or the president death threats, etc... In short, if we can't have everything our way, we are going to throw a tantrum and shut down discussion.

                                                                Get ready for a backlash, especially to the racism.

                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                Reply#23 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:15 AM EDT
                                                                AngryWhiteMan63

                                                                especially to the racism

                                                                What racism?

                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                #23.1 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:22 AM EDT
                                                                Reply
                                                                tweetheart44

                                                                There are few things that are worse than an angry white man with an arsenal. I just don't understand why the gun owners are so angry! No one has taken away their right to bear arms. If any one should be upset, it is those of us who have to live with all of the guns in our world, whether we like it or not.

                                                                • 4 votes
                                                                Reply#24 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:39 AM EDT
                                                                California Militia

                                                                I am a gun owner and avid collector of firearms. I beg to differ when you say that no one has taken away my rights to bear arms. As I live in california, there are a number of weapons which I am not legally allowed to posess. One such weapon is the AR-15. I am also not allowed to posess a magazine which can carry more than 10 rounds. I cannot posess or purchase a pistol where the magazine loads in front of the trigger. I cannot have a bayonet lug installed on a rifle. I cannot own a rifle with a pistol grip.

                                                                so they have at least in part taken away my right to bear arms.

                                                                not trying to argue, just thought I would put that out there in case you were unaware.

                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                #24.1 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:23 PM EDT
                                                                JACK DEATH

                                                                That is CA law NOT Federal law.

                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                #24.2 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:41 PM EDT
                                                                tweetheart44

                                                                California, Why would you need those things? I mean, most gun owners claim that they just want to protect themselves and their family if an intruder comes into their house. I would really like to know why those guns, etc. are so important to you.

                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                #24.3 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:25 PM EDT
                                                                tweetheart44

                                                                By the way, you still own guns (several of them...am I right?) The right to bear arms (2nd Amendment) was not written for the benefit of gun collectors. I don't have anything against gun collectors, as long as no one can possibly gain access to steal them from you. I understand the hobby of collecting. I am a collector myself.

                                                                I don't think that the law keeping you from owning these guns, etc. is a statement about you so much as it is to protect the rest of us from those guns, etc. accidentally getting into the wrong hands and being used in a crime.

                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                #24.4 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:48 PM EDT
                                                                Adam Kemp

                                                                You also can't own a nuclear weapon. Is that a violation of your rights? If not then there must be a line somewhere, and that line is going to be somewhat arbitrary and subjective.

                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                #24.5 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:34 PM EDT
                                                                ArletaDeleted
                                                                Adam Kemp

                                                                Nobody is asking to possess nuclear weapons or missiles so drop it.

                                                                That's the point, though. Almost everyone recognizes that there are legitimate limits to which weapons people should be allowed to own. The disagreement is just where to draw the line.

                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                #24.7 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:59 PM EDT
                                                                Reply
                                                                tweetheart44

                                                                Why do gun owners who post pro-gun stories on the Internet get off on showing everyone all of their guns? Is it a power trip? Or are you trying to prove ot us that you are a "tough guy"? Real tough guys don't have to show their guns to the world.

                                                                By the way, the title of your story shows how arrogant you are.

                                                                • 4 votes
                                                                Reply#25 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:42 AM EDT
                                                                California Militia

                                                                i am thinking that showing off their weapons would be the same as a person cherrying out a mustang and taking it to a car show. doesnt mean that he or she is speed racer, just means they like their car(s)

                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                #25.1 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:25 PM EDT
                                                                tweetheart44

                                                                California, I never thought of it that way. Interesting! I am sure that in some situations you are correct. On the other hand, I am sure that some gun owners get off on showing what they have in their arsenal in case someone decides to cross them. You know...the "tough guy" complex.

                                                                  #25.2 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:53 PM EDT
                                                                  ArletaDeleted
                                                                  jaywow67

                                                                  When you are openly carrying an assault styled weapon to a town hall meeting, you are showing off. Even on your planet that's showing off. When you openly carry a rig like the guy holding the sign was you are showing off. Even on your planet you are showing off. When you bring a concealed weapon to a town hall meeting and drop it on the floor you are showing off and blatantly stupid. Even on your planet that would stupid and showing off.

                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                  #25.4 - Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:22 PM EDT
                                                                  Reply
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